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Post by Admin on Mar 6, 2022 13:46:47 GMT 12
I want to start a discussion on forum conduct to get your views. And possibly the views of some ‘lurkers’ or ex-forum members who have departed here but are still watching.
Here’s the problem statement that I want to tackle:
People wanted a place to speak freely without moderation and where they are treated like adults to take personal responsibility for their behaviour. I set up such a place but there still seems to be a problem with how people cope with opposing views. This is obviously a problem for the whole of humankind - which is why we are still seeing avoidable tragedies like the current war between Russia and Ukraine. But I had hoped for better and that a lack of moderation would lead to a more diverse set of views & opinions co-existing here. But that doesn’t seem to be happening with a high turnover of new arrivals challenging the prevailing view and then being ‘burnt off’. That’s not ideal for anyone.
So in summary, you basically said “Give us an unmoderated forum and trust us to make it work”. But so far I’m not convinced it is working based on the way that conflict escalates as quickly here as anywhere else. In other words, you guys are not doing a great job of self-managing the kind of environment that you asked for!
I welcome your considered views on how to tackle this problem.
But please think carefully before posting to avoid it becoming another bun-fight.
And as I said, I welcome views from present and past members - which I hope will be treated respectfully.
Over to you guys…
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2022 15:03:09 GMT 12
Maybe a holiday system rather than banning/deleting a member when it gets out of hand. From what I have seen its all against one member.sent message to admin.
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Post by eri on Mar 6, 2022 15:20:53 GMT 12
are you able to see what isp people are posting from?
a fair few of these "new arrivals, who soon depart" seem to be the same problematic 'personality' who delights in the anonymity of the web to create scores of troublemaking sock-puppets
they went through 10? abrasive, argumentative identities on crew over the last few years
and looks to have done the same here over the last few months
i don't know much of the technology but it would certainly limit their behaviour if their individual isp number was noted by the owner/moderator before they were allowed to join the forum
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Post by Admin on Mar 6, 2022 15:40:01 GMT 12
OK but to be honest I’m looking more for suggestions on how to better tolerate a diverse range of views and behaviours rather than ideas on how to track down and suspend outliers!
In other words, I’m looking for ideas on ways that the ‘mainstream’ of users here can tolerate ‘outliers’ rather than drive them away.
I understand you may find certain users suspicious or ‘repeat offenders’ but only because they challenge certain views. Surely we should be able to spot that kind of behaviour and rise above it?
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Post by El Toro on Mar 6, 2022 15:57:30 GMT 12
You cant moderate trolls
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Post by OLD ROPE 👀 on Mar 6, 2022 16:00:06 GMT 12
I think you're worrying about nothing and making hard work for your self.
You will never get balanced rules/ comments etc while the world is so tribal.
The best thing you can do is let the punters drive the forum ( market force analogy) and if people decide to vamoose then that's the punters decision.
Let's face it, there are examples all over the place where... teams have their oven fans regardless of any sense of balance or fairness, businesses have loyal employees/supporters who stay with a brand despite the brands demise. And more importantly left leaning lunatics have their sites and ban rightists from challenging them on their site . IE Crew.
As soon as you introduce rules you be become tasked with ...
-Trying to decide fairness
-Not being divisive
-Taking sides
-Ensuring the " guys that are mates" don't gang up and influence your thoughts and actions...
Let's face it, crew have done what you propose for the last 15 years and have progressively lost numbers from a high thousands to a handful and at the same time the lefty have blown away the mighty right by influencing the admin/ owner.
If you want to be everything to everybody, then my experience says, you'll be nothing to nobody.
At the moment the people who have left have not won hearts and minds of the majority, and basically have been "soft cocks" short term stirrers. Do you want them?
This may we'll be a anti labour sailors forum... But what the fucks wrong with that!... But please don't introduce devisive rules that may deny the lunatic left the ability to throw their woke, "dumb ass" idealistic socialist thoughts at us.
Just say " everyone's welcome and let "punter forces" reign supreme!
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Post by OLD ROPE 👀 on Mar 6, 2022 16:04:40 GMT 12
are you able to see what isp people are posting from? a fair few of these "new arrivals, who soon depart" seem to be the same problematic 'personality' who delights in the anonymity of the web to create scores of troublemaking sock-puppets they went through 10? abrasive, argumentative identities on crew over the last few years and looks to have done the same here over the last few months i don't know much of the technology but it would certainly limit their behaviour if their individual isp number was noted by the owner/moderator before they were allowed to join the forum let them be at the mercy of the forum! If they have done that, and maybe you are right, they have all left of their own fruition... So it's working! |
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Post by OLD ROPE 👀 on Mar 6, 2022 16:10:35 GMT 12
why bother!?... They moderate themselves! What is a troll?... Someone like Drwright?. Nope! Someone, whose opinion you don't agree with?.. Just let the forum go where it wants. Society is full of bullshit rules. Let's not introduce more. Let the people self regulate the behavior. What an opportunity to differentiate from Screw.org |
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Post by Admin on Mar 6, 2022 16:24:16 GMT 12
I am not proposing to introduce any new rules or moderation.
But I am inviting a discussion amongst everyone ranging from the leading voices to the quietest minority.
But so far the answers are mostly defensive and disappointing.
Please think about this point which is one of my favourite philosophical observations:
Q: What does it feel like to be wrong?
A: It feels exactly the same as being right. Up until the moment you actually realise you are wrong. 😊
So before jumping to anymore finger-pointing and blaming how about holding up a few mirrors and reflecting?
It’s not just one repeat ‘offender’ who has been driven away but several other measured and intelligent users who have found the lack of tolerance for diverse views disappointing.
Putting the question more pointedly - if you want to avoid this place becoming an abusive echo-chamber then how do you change yourself to change this place (which is after all made up by all of us)?
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Post by Cantab on Mar 6, 2022 16:26:08 GMT 12
Quick friendly reminder, not public, to those that are making comments directed at the person or personality of a poster.
Encourage debate on the subject matter not the posters beliefs. (Except for those "Woke" ones who deserve a roasting.)
Alternatively let it run, if someone calls you a raving lunatic then can't handle the response and cries to mum and throws their toys out I find that quite entertaining too, just not what I come here for.,
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Post by dutyfree on Mar 6, 2022 17:38:43 GMT 12
My observation (with my own implicit biases) is that the succession of "deleted" have come in, don't like stuff and their response is to exit. Now I have seen a bunch of stuff on here I don't agree with, I just ignore it and move one, just like in real life where not everyone shares my views on basically everything i.e. there is always someone with a different view. That is why I read all sorts of blogs (left, right etc). I do not have a monopoly on knowledge.
Again my biased view from here and the other place is that there is a set of people with reasonably fixed views, I don't have a problem with that, but many of them seem to. Life is not black and white, certain or predictable, neither are opinions. I think people interpret the fact that a bunch of us can coexist, as group think. We are all ACT supporters, alt right etc. I think they are wrong, we tolerate and accept alternative views or ignore them and move on.
The "deleted" of this blog seem to bail when people won't agree with them and they are absolutely certain they are right. I wish I had such knowledge and insight to know that I am correct.
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Post by eri on Mar 6, 2022 19:10:31 GMT 12
schooner/deleted/?/?/? never left
just now surfs between other 'identities'
this identity fraud may be 'fun' for them
but imho is absolutely corrosive to the cohesiveness of a small forum
hence the churn in membership
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Post by OLD ROPE 👀 on Mar 7, 2022 7:18:28 GMT 12
schooner/deleted/?/?/? never left just now surfs between other 'identities' this identity fraud may be 'fun' for them
but imho is absolutely corrosive to the cohesiveness of a small forum
hence the churn in membership totally disagree. I have read thru the deleted ×3? Posts and they left ,(churn) because... 1. In response to certain long term members being rather Agressive in thier response to posts they didn't agree with. 2. Others just came here to rev up the Majority, of right wing posts, with no intention of staying. 3. One came here for 7 days ( in isolation) to challenge the group and never intended to stay or change the minds of the majority So, to say they are the same is just nutbar, and if they are, then losing 1 member instead of 3,4,5? Is not churn! Eri, Sorry to ruin your emotional spin with the facts. |
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Post by eri on Mar 7, 2022 8:31:51 GMT 12
pretty sure that; tamure, deleted, schooner, drwright, fuzzyduck, em? and others are all the same person... and so have as little to do with them, their posts and questions etc as possible however if anyone wants to engage with them, their circular rants, insults etcyou will be at least providing them with the entertainment they work so hard forif however you would rather not be part of their 'entertainment'
nzsailing.freeforums.net/user/4/privacy |
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Post by fish on Mar 7, 2022 10:05:49 GMT 12
I am not proposing to introduce any new rules or moderation. But I am inviting a discussion amongst everyone ranging from the leading voices to the quietest minority. But so far the answers are mostly defensive and disappointing. Please think about this point which is one of my favourite philosophical observations: Q: What does it feel like to be wrong? A: It feels exactly the same as being right. Up until the moment you actually realise you are wrong. 😊 So before jumping to anymore finger-pointing and blaming how about holding up a few mirrors and reflecting? It’s not just one repeat ‘offender’ who has been driven away but several other measured and intelligent users who have found the lack of tolerance for diverse views disappointing. Putting the question more pointedly - if you want to avoid this place becoming an abusive echo-chamber then how do you change yourself to change this place (which is after all made up by all of us)? Personally, I welcome difference of opinion and diversity of thought. I aren't going to expand my mind if we all agree. I was disappointed Dr Wright left, as I had some questions I wanted to put to him. I think the basics of a good forum are: 1) no personal attacks / name calling, 2) keep it constructive (i.e. not just negative take downs) There has been discontent about sock puppets / multiple user names, but I think that has settled down now, and we can move on from that. With regard to 'rules' and 'moderation', I don't think we need that. In an un-moderated forum where issues arise the members need to sort it out themselves, i.e. saying you dissagree with personal attacks when they happen, and ignoring sock puppets until the go away. In terms of entrenched views and being wrong, I think this forum is reflecting society at the moment, where there is complete polarisation. This is entirely about covid and the politics associated with that. What to do about that? the other forum tried banning even mentioning it, but when covid is front and centre of everyone's lives that was just futile. I think the problem comes about where new members disagree with the majority view in the covid thread. I've had private conversations with a new member who left and the sole reason was polar different views on covid and the response. In all other respects he was a smart and constructive member, and while I disagree with him on covid, with have many other things in common. Now, look at the genesis of this forum, it is very young, and evolving. A massive achievement is that it appears to have as many or more active threads than that other place (I can only check in on my phone, as they are scared I will say something that upsets them and am still blocked via my IP). I think the primary issue here is that the bulk of our active threads are controversial and polarising topics. I'm talking covid threads and the politics associated with it. I think this is natural, and reflects society at the moment. Covid dominates all MSM news channels and is dominating everyone's lives. We have fewer 'on water' threads. I would hope that over time we get more 'non-controversial' threads and the prominence of covid and politics in the forum reduces. This would allow people with opposing views of covid to engage in other areas and topics in a meaningful way. How do we encourage that and get there? I hope over time covid wont be such a dominant issue. Hopefully the end of March or Mid April this wave will be over, restrictions will lift, and we can start arguing about the new CAT 3 safety regulations, or GO30's blind trust in dangerous and expensive flares, or something. It may be chicken & egg, do we get more users to start more threads, or do we need more threads to attract participation of more users? This is likely to happen organically, i.e. the R66 thread, but it may also take a little effort from us, i.e. we should talk about something else other than covid! One possible option is to jiggle the forum structure and remove covid & politics into its own area, and have general for 'general'. The most active threads are always at the top of a section, so if you don't want to mud wrestle in the covid thread, you have to scroll past it to a 'non-partisan' topic. Having different sections means that people can choose to look at covid & politics, or you can look at content without seeing that stuff and avoiding being triggered. I should clarify that I'm not strongly advocating this, it is just an observation. I think benefit will be from our own behavioral change and organic improvement. |
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