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Post by fish on Jun 3, 2023 18:47:13 GMT 12
All excited to go down to the boat today and knock off a couple of 'improvement' jobs, only to find my house batteries at 7 volts. (supposed to be a 12 volt system, not some random motorcycle 6 volt one). Very frustrated. Then, to really rub it in, some fucking siren kept on going for the hour or more I was running the engine to get some ergs into the bats. Would stop for 5 seconds then start up again. After that I gave up, extracted the batteries from their den lagged the fuckers home to charge properly.
I left the main isolator on last time I was on the boat. Still, no actual items were on, so I'm a bit put out by the whole thing.
To give this some contrast, I've been worried about my batteries for some time. Got a battery monitor, installed it, then it froze, then I worked out how to re-set it, then it wouldn't communicate with my phone, then I worked out how to do that, now that was working good. Then I found the solar wasn't charging. Managed to determine one of my 2x90W panels had died (actually worked that out quickly, and all by myself). Thought, fuck it, I got a nice little rigid 20W float panel, so I don't have to leave my super expensive (and now dead) flexible panels out in the weather when I don't really need them.
So today, I was thinking, sweat, batteries will be in good condition, I've fixed and done everything to keep them nicely topped up, little bit of float charge but no risk of over charging. Time to get into some nice improvement jobs. Then, 7 volts.
Grumpy fish Very grumpy.
PS, can anyone recommend a good voltage sensitive relay for a low voltage cut out? And what is an appropriate cut out voltage, 11v? Low enough it won't snooker me while I'm out sailing, but high enough to prevent discharge damage if they go flat onthe mooring. They are just FLA's, but I really don't want to spring for the coin to replace them cause of silly shit.
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w44vi
New Member
Posts: 5
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Post by w44vi on Jun 3, 2023 19:25:28 GMT 12
Sorry but they are likely stuffed now as they have been taken down so low.
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Post by harrytom on Jun 3, 2023 19:30:12 GMT 12
Last yacht was simple isolators on or off,start battery would start motor then turn on house to charge. Got rid of solar panels when first brought as had issues,not charging,going flat when away from yacht.
Never had issues going flat even after weeks non starting. Keep it simple stupid. KISS
Think you maybe in for new batteries.
Panels had regulator fitted and some reverse charge thingy,according to son the reverse charge thing stops them discharging when not operating due lack of sun.Beyond me thats for sure
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Post by fish on Jun 3, 2023 20:30:10 GMT 12
Sorry but they are likely stuffed now as they have been taken down so low. You aren't helping my mood. Just saying.
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Post by fish on Jun 3, 2023 21:07:23 GMT 12
Think you maybe in for new batteries. Panels had regulator fitted and some reverse charge thingy,according to son the reverse charge thing stops them discharging when not operating due lack of sun.Beyond me thats for sure That is a diode to stop the batteries discharging when there is no light on the panels. A standard thing. On this whole 'the batteries are stuffed' thing, I've been increasingly suspicious about these bat's self-discharge rate for some time. Like looking at it for months. Something isn't adding up, in that we have been thinking there is a parasitic load on them, cause they always seem to be lower than I thought they should be when I've been away from the boat. One issue was the solar shitting itself, which didn't help. Part of getting the battery monitor was to verify this parasitic load. Haven't found it yet. But this time, yes I left the isolator on, but all other items were off. I checked when I saw the 7 volts and the isolator open. All switches we up (off) on the control panel. Its not like I left the fridge on for a month, with just a 20W float panel in the middle of winter. So to answer w44vi, yes the bats may be stuffed. But possibly not just because they went to 7 volts. They may have a micro-short, which increases their self discharge rate. I've been suspicious of this for a while. It is when a bit of a plate falls off and bridges the gap between plates at the bottom. Going to 7 volts is the symptom of the underlying problem. Incidentally, these batts were a replacement set for a previous set I wasn't happy with, on warranty. Just 232Ahr FLA's (US2200), purchased from Burnsco. Hella Endurant did a condition test on them and they were marginal, so Burnsco put the hard word on them to replace the bats, with the ones that have just shat themselves. It helped that I kept careful notes of everything, including the resting voltage in my log-book every time I got to the boat. At the time Hella Endurant said they wont honor another warranty claim on the second lot of batts, as it has to be something to do with my set up. Well, me and my father have been over the set up with a fine tooth comb and can't find what the issue is. We have a Smart Charger on the alternator, solar float, with a battery monitor. I've sat there watching volts and amps through an entire engine charging cycle, so it is not that. We have a simple boat, with an electric fridge, lights, stereo, instruments and AP. No water pumps, no inverters, no water makers, no radar. By contrast, our start battery is AGM, is 10 or 15 years old, has its own float panel and is always at 13.3 v if the sun is out, otherwise 12.8 rested, i.e. fully charged. Been like that over a decade. The anchor winch is off the start batt. I know how to read the product manual, and even have the hella endurant manual filed on my computer. I've explained the charge parameters from the manual to the Hella Endurant rep. I always have a bottle of DI water in the locker by the batts, and a special filling bottle with an auto depth filler thing, so its not like I'm some ignoramous killing my house batts. Hmm, maybe I feel another warranty claim coming on...
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Post by jim on Jun 3, 2023 23:36:57 GMT 12
Possibly unrelated to your problem(s) but a few years back i had concerns about a small solar/regulator/battery setup and visited it in the pitch black with a multimeter... 170 milliamps were flowing back into the solar panel despite the new (not even chinese) controllers sales pitch claiming diode protection against this. i phoned BP Solar and told them about the 170 ma and asked if they ever actually verified the brochures claims their reply was along the lines of we just go of the manufactures claimed specs. in winter time with say 16 hours of no sun .17 amps x 12.7volts is 32 watts disappearing for the day. and if there isn't much sun then the battery will be sad pretty quickly.
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Post by harrytom on Jun 4, 2023 4:54:57 GMT 12
Possibly unrelated to your problem(s) but a few years back i had concerns about a small solar/regulator/battery setup and visited it in the pitch black with a multimeter... 170 milliamps were flowing back into the solar panel despite the new (not even chinese) controllers sales pitch claiming diode protection against this. i phoned BP Solar and told them about the 170 ma and asked if they ever actually verified the brochures claims their reply was along the lines of we just go of the manufactures claimed specs. in winter time with say 16 hours of no sun .17 amps x 12.7volts is 32 watts disappearing for the day. and if there isn't much sun then the battery will be sad pretty quickly. BP panels sounds familiar ,think they are what I removed.
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Post by fish on Jun 4, 2023 10:16:55 GMT 12
Possibly unrelated to your problem(s) but a few years back i had concerns about a small solar/regulator/battery setup and visited it in the pitch black with a multimeter... 170 milliamps were flowing back into the solar panel despite the new (not even chinese) controllers sales pitch claiming diode protection against this. i phoned BP Solar and told them about the 170 ma and asked if they ever actually verified the brochures claims their reply was along the lines of we just go of the manufactures claimed specs. in winter time with say 16 hours of no sun .17 amps x 12.7volts is 32 watts disappearing for the day. and if there isn't much sun then the battery will be sad pretty quickly. Thanks Jim, I better exclude that as a fault before spending $$ on new batts. I've been doing a little reading already. Standard FLA batts have a design life of 3 to 5 years. These ones are 3.5 yrs old already. So they are within that range of dieing naturally. The warranty period was 2 yrs, so I am well passed that. I can't see why I would put FLA's back in again. I was always happy with 300 to 500 discharge cycles, but it didn't occur to me the design life is so short (3-5 years). This summer (if you call it that) the boat spent a lot of time on the mooring. I see lifePo4 batts are almost the same price now, with far better design life, discharge life and charging capabilities. I'm also really interested in these new lead-carbon batts. Seem to have a major advantage in they don't need to be fully recharged after each discharge, so sulphation is much less of an issue. And they have a 20 yr design life. I'm still trying to get my head around the charge profile and a few other key technical elements. I'm not seeing a substantial difference in price from lithium, but I haven't looked that hard yet. Calling em, what can you tell us about your Lead Carbon batts? I've always had a expectation that batts need to be replaced periodically, hence my aversion to killing them and spending $$$. But if I understand right, with one of these new technologies, I could get a new battery and it will last for ever. Like 20 yrs and all the discharge cycles I can do by using the boat. Bog standard batts will cost between $800-$1000 and last 3-5 yrs, or for maybe $1,400 I can get a 200 Ah lithium and never have to think about it for the remaining life of the boat.
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Post by jim on Jun 4, 2023 11:40:53 GMT 12
Actually i should add that when i replaced the parasite-of-a-controller with another i checked with the distributer and confirmed after installation that the new one only drew 20 milliamps during the night. Our yacht battery (burnsco 12v fla marine) died recently after 8 years of loyal service so i hate to say it but you could feel a bit hard done by with just 3.5 years... Re the lead carbon our off grid farm has just ditched the 7 year old truck batteries for a set of Lead Carbon - early days but so far looking good. the features look impressive, especially not having sulfation permanently handicap the battery if you run the voltage too low for any reason - such as a summer with no sun (not that we would ever have that). our only drawback was we had to get a new controller that could be set to a lower max voltage (27.7) . early reports from others indicate 15 plus years is likely. Didn't EM go with lithium iron phosphate?
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Post by fish on Jun 4, 2023 13:18:43 GMT 12
Actually i should add that when i replaced the parasite-of-a-controller with another i checked with the distributer and confirmed after installation that the new one only drew 20 milliamps during the night. Our yacht battery (burnsco 12v fla marine) died recently after 8 years of loyal service so i hate to say it but you could feel a bit hard done by with just 3.5 years... Re the lead carbon our off grid farm has just ditched the 7 year old truck batteries for a set of Lead Carbon - early days but so far looking good. the features look impressive, especially not having sulfation permanently handicap the battery if you run the voltage too low for any reason - such as a summer with no sun (not that we would ever have that). our only drawback was we had to get a new controller that could be set to a lower max voltage (27.7) . early reports from others indicate 15 plus years is likely. Didn't EM go with lithium iron phosphate? I am definitely feeling hard done by at 3.5 yrs. Before this set we used to assume 10 years out of a set of house batts, and 8 sounds perfectly realistic. This current set was a warranty replacement for the first set of US2200's. And by comparison, our start AGM is so old we don't know how old it is. Somewhere between 10 and 15 yrs. We did change the engine with this set of batts onboard. The old engine had a balmar smart regulator. We didn't re-commission that for about 2 years after getting the new engine going, probably about 100 hrs worth. We had to get a "thing" put in the new alternator, so there was loads of faffing after faffing with the engine, engine bed, shaft, cutless bearing, packing gland shaft coupling, you get the picture... We were told we didn't need a smart regulator, and the alt is 70 amps (I thought it was 40 amps for some reason). Haven't seen it produce more than 40 amps since we've had the battery monitor. Anyway, that is the only thing that is historically different that could have impacted our battery life somehow (over charging?) Unless of course I've been using the boat more than I remember, but you saw what last summer was like. Anyway, what is the charge profile for these lead-carbon? Same as a FLA, but with lower voltages? i.e. bulk, absorption, float? I'm fairly sure EM went with lead-carbon, but I could be wrong.
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Post by Fogg on Jun 4, 2023 16:48:27 GMT 12
Lots to cover here but a couple of key points.
Firstly, yes I feel your pain. You spend a load of time & effort to fix the boat up - including a specific system - and then it lets you down when it’s supposed to be the best sorted part if the boat. I remember feeling ‘betrayed’ when this happened on my previous boat after investing tons in the heating system and it broke down at 5pm on a cold winter Saturday afternoon shortly after firing it up. I remembered the pissed off texts I sent to my wife after looking forward to a warm & cosy night aboard only to be faced with a chilly one. I actually decided to sell the boat soon after that (having fixed the heating of course).
Back to the batts:
1. I’ve heard several stories in the last 2-3 yrs - including from battery suppliers - that the quality of manufacturing of traditional lead-acid batts has dropped right off due to cost of components and the shift in buyer interest towards lithium. The story goes that LA is now a sunset technology so the quality of manufacture and lifespan is dripping off. I had a set of expensive AGMs die after 2yrs and they were replaced under warranty - I was lucky enough to be able to provide the supplier / manufacturer with the charging and voltage usage history from the charge controller history database. This proved the batts had been used and charged within spec hence the only explanation for failure was deemed ‘manufacturing defect’ hence replacement under warranty.
2. Notwithstanding my point 1 above, modern batteries can be incredibly sensitive to the charging profile. So you need to check the product spec sheet provided by the manufacturer to understand the correct Bulk, Absorption, Float and Storage voltages for your batts - and you need to set your controllers to match that as exactly as possible - no more than 0.2v different. It’s not good enough to use a generic setting like “AGM” just because your batts are AGM because the voltage can vary but as much as 0.5v. Which is the difference between success and failure over 2-3 yrs.
For example, my Full River AGMs needed Bulk voltage of 14.5 -14.7v but the “AGM” setting on my shorepower controller only output 14.2v in Bulk mode. Hence I had to use the “Custom” setting and program the outputs voltages to match the exact reqs for each stage. And that’s not just the case for the shorepower controller but all your charging controllers eg engine / alternator, solar, wind etc.
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Post by Fogg on Jun 4, 2023 17:08:09 GMT 12
Finally, in summary, from what I’ve learned and experienced about the intricacies of 12v battery charging setup, I’d go so far as to say the majority of boats are probably not setup within spec. In the old days, when we were less demanding of our batts, this didn’t matter as much. But as we’ve become ever more power hungry combined with (potentially) lower quality of lead-acid manufacturing, getting battery setup exactly on spec is even more important to get reasonable lifespan.
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Post by fish on Jun 4, 2023 18:09:31 GMT 12
Finally, in summary, from what I’ve learned and experienced about the intricacies of 12v battery charging setup, I’d go so far as to say the majority of boats are probably not setup within spec. In the old days, when we were less demanding of our batts, this didn’t matter as much. But as we’ve become ever more power hungry combined with (potentially) lower quality of lead-acid manufacturing, getting battery setup exactly on spec is even more important to get reasonable lifespan. Thanks Fogg, Yes, I have the hella endurant product spec manual, and can almost quote the exact, manufacturer specified numbers by heart. We (my father and I) have painstakingly gone through the solar controller and Balmar regulator for the specific reasons you say, even cross checking each other. Interesting what you say about LA being a sunset technology (it clearly is), and what I am seeing certainly supports your theory they are just dropping the quality / doing some profit taking on those batts. Question - how / what do you use to record the full service history of your batts? I've been looking into that. Many of the warrantees require you to have full data logging - certainly AA Solar, who's warranty I've read in full. But for my own protection as well. One of the new batts I'm looking at has an 8 yr warranty, another one 5 yrs, all pro-rata. We currently have an Epever solar controller, and were considered changing to a victron one, as it has full logging with blutooth to a phone app. I had a google yesterday for just a data logger and came up with nothing.
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Post by jim on Jun 4, 2023 18:18:32 GMT 12
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Post by Fogg on Jun 4, 2023 19:07:45 GMT 12
I get my charge history from Victory Connect App which links to the 2x MPPT solar controllers I have. They are small and cheap units (ie cost hundreds not thousands) and have Blueteeth so I can connect any time in on the boat to check the current voltage and charging setup and history. You can also download as CSV file I think.
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