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Post by eri on Jun 23, 2023 11:41:44 GMT 12
like the space shuttle disaster
it's very hard to make reusable items last multiple cycles on the very edge of engineering
AND try to save money
will be interesting watching the development of reusable rockets
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Post by eri on Jun 23, 2023 12:29:55 GMT 12
from 6min youtu.be/AJd_rElBG04?t=359very good from james cameron he says they seem to have heard the carbon cracking and had dropped their weights and were returning to the surface when the complete failure happened www.youtube.com/watch?v=rThZLhNF_xg&ab_channel=ABCNewseven though cameron's submersible to the deeper marianas trench looked tubular, the pressure hull was spherical metal "Titan's carbon-fiber walls are 5 inches (13 cm) thick, and the vessel is capped at each end with titanium domes"
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Post by harrytom on Jun 23, 2023 13:58:13 GMT 12
James Cameron is fine one to talk it,he did multiple trips in it,in my mind,he has basically said it safe. Now he starts finger pointing,pity it didnt go with him it.
1.5hrs lose of communication,thats when they perished.
Usa/russian/English subs can only go 300ms,or there about, so what makes amateurs think they can go 4000m??
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Post by eri on Jun 23, 2023 13:59:56 GMT 12
i don't think cameron spent all those hours at the titanic in the titan submersible
from the video he seems to have hated the idea of carbon-fibre pressure hulls since they were first conceived
us navy hydrophones seem to have recorded the implosion on sunday night
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Post by Fogg on Jun 23, 2023 15:25:46 GMT 12
Of course the finger-pointing naysayers have already started and more will come.
One despicable leftie journo in the UK said that if the rich can afford $250k for extreme adventures they should be taxed more. I could imagine one of the regular posters at ‘that other place’ saying similar.
It sounds like everyone onboard was highly intelligent and fully aware of the risks. They made a choice which they should be entitled to do.
And yes, their choice has cost a lot of taxpayer funded S&R activities but I don’t for a minute resent that. That’s what they are there for. And the people involved usually learn loads from these experiences which makes them better next time.
Highly unfortunate - with technical learnings for the future - and of course tragic for the families.
But that’s where it begins and ends, in my view.
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Post by Cantab on Jun 23, 2023 17:54:02 GMT 12
Nicely put, lots of ways to look at it, you found some positives, at least they got off the couch. They probably paid more in tax than some countries gdp and contributed to society more than most politicians.
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Post by fish on Jun 23, 2023 19:55:57 GMT 12
Of course the finger-pointing naysayers have already started and more will come. One despicable leftie journo in the UK said that if the rich can afford $250k for extreme adventures they should be taxed more. I could imagine one of the regular posters at ‘that other place’ saying similar. It sounds like everyone onboard was highly intelligent and fully aware of the risks. They made a choice which they should be entitled to do. And yes, their choice has cost a lot of taxpayer funded S&R activities but I don’t for a minute resent that. That’s what they are there for. And the people involved usually learn loads from these experiences which makes them better next time. Highly unfortunate - with technical learnings for the future - and of course tragic for the families. But that’s where it begins and ends, in my view. I agree with your points, but I still really struggle with the whole optics of this. 600 to 750 dead immigrants from a capsized fishing boat of Greece, and one Coastguard cutter standing by. 5 rich guys doing something really stupid (of their own volition, no issues with that) and three countries navies and airforce's drop everything and spend moonbeams on a futile search. Just doesn't sit right with me. Sure, the titan probably warranted one country who's SAR area it was to pay some cursory attention. Send a surface ship and aerial recon. But 3 countries including navies and airforce? the amount of assets deployed and expense ran up (those sonar buoys are $100k each) was completely disproportionate to the number of people missing and the prospect of recovering people alive. Seriously, if that may assets were deployed to the capsized migrant boat, they would have recovered 3 times the number of people alive that were in the titan.
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Post by Fogg on Jun 23, 2023 20:40:05 GMT 12
I think your criticism is more to do with the disproportionate media coverage of the event than the actual amount spent on S&R efforts.
Just to put this into context with some facts, the UK is currently spending about NZD$10m per DAY on dealing with illegal immigration flooding into the country. This excludes the costs of the on-the-water English Channel collaboration running between UK & French Navy and rescue services, to work out who is responsible for each event.
Dover coastguard alone currently receives about 3-5 alerts per day.
This makes the cost of a few sonar buoys look like a rounding error.
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Post by harrytom on Jun 24, 2023 16:50:03 GMT 12
https://www.tiktok.com/@titanic_empire/video/7246874298202328347
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Post by fish on Jun 25, 2023 0:14:23 GMT 12
Posted in wrong thread, post removed.
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Post by GO30 on Jun 25, 2023 10:47:24 GMT 12
Looks more n more the carbon pressure vessel wasn't up for it. Also a question over the carbon itself maybe, apparently it was acquired cheap it had timed out for use in aircraft. Also lots of engineers raising questions about it's ability to handle huge cyclic loads. I would have thought that's more an engineering thing i.e. not designed tuff enuf.
Far too may reckon dude Stockton was a little too cocky, in a situation like that cocky can kill and appears it did.
Anyone seen/heard anything around depth of implosion? They reckon it is a 2hr trip down there, they heard the noise 1:45 into the dive so were they not far off the sea floor Reports have said there was an issue and they had dumped a weight and were heading back up when it happened. One report said the Navy reckon the noise was estimated to be in the 2500-3000m range. The debris field is spread a bit which could suggest they fell a wee distance. .
Just wondering if they got down there, were on the way back or where they were when it happened.
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Post by fish on Jun 25, 2023 11:36:49 GMT 12
Looks more n more the carbon pressure vessel wasn't up for it. Also a question over the carbon itself maybe, apparently it was acquired cheap it had timed out for use in aircraft. Also lots of engineers raising questions about it's ability to handle huge cyclic loads. I would have thought that's more an engineering thing i.e. not designed tuff enuf. Far too may reckon dude Stockton was a little too cocky, in a situation like that cocky can kill and appears it did. Anyone seen/heard anything around depth of implosion? They reckon it is a 2hr trip down there, they heard the noise 1:45 into the dive so were they not far off the sea floor Reports have said there was an issue and they had dumped a weight and were heading back up when it happened. One report said the Navy reckon the noise was estimated to be in the 2500-3000m range. The debris field is spread a bit which could suggest they fell a wee distance. . Just wondering if they got down there, were on the way back or where they were when it happened. Its not 'if' the carbon can handle the huge pressure loads, the question is how many cycles can it handle. In this case it was 'n-1' obviously, being one less than the number of dives it did. I love the example of PE pipe, (which is just the same as a piece of carbon tube). A nominal pressure rating of 16 bar can handle 24 bar, but only once. If you want to do 50million pressure cycles, then it can only handle 8 bar. So looking at at from an accountants point of view, you'd go great, I can use the cheaper 16 bar pipe and it will actually handle 24 bar. Yes it will. Once. Maybe 2 or 3 times. Short story is the carbon tube should have been replaced frequently, but that costs money. This is basically why no-one else was using carbon tube. The other big issue is understanding its cyclic fatigue response. The only way to establish this for any pipe or tube is to test multiple samples of pipe. They all fail at different times (numbers of cycles), then you do a statistical regression and choose your confidence level. That doesn't cost too much when you are talking alkathene. But when you are talking bespoke one off moonbeams expensive carbon it becomes more problematic. in short, the paying punters were lab-rats in someone else's experiment.
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Post by GO30 on Jun 25, 2023 11:58:40 GMT 12
It had been down there 10 plus times and did some other deep dives so I'd think there would have been a 'been there many times and come back, she's good to go' mentality happening, certainly appears so with Stockton.
I'm sure you could do it with carbon as long as you engineered accordingly. Not to sure if using a empty dunny paper tube is a good thing to model off though, especially if it's ends are only glued in. Surely a one piece carbon sub continuous wound around body and ends all at once would have to be a lot stronger.
The Tirest (spelling warning) was a early ultra deep sub and she was made of 5" steel.
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Post by DuckMaster on Jun 25, 2023 22:58:50 GMT 12
Wow. Just caught up on this.
Cameron never went in titan. He had his own spherical sub.
Guess they would of been vaporized. Wouldn't be surprised if the entire carbon fibre tube was vaporized as well given how flammable it is.
Good on them for pushing the boundaries we need people like this.
I strangely feel a sense of ?relief? (I don't really know what the word is) that the CEO, the person ultimately responsible for everyone's safety, was in the capsule and met the same fate.
I have seen to many rich millionaires ruin people's lives and walk away with a slap on the wrist.
It's a very odd feeling and I confess I am struggling to reconcile it.
If he wasn't in it, I certainly wouldn't be wishing he was. But I feel like he has been held accountable to a standard far higher than any investigation or court ever could of...
Weird!
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Post by DuckMaster on Jun 25, 2023 23:08:12 GMT 12
OceanGate CEO Stockton Rush reportedly said that the carbon fibre used for the vessel's hull came at a "big discount" from Boeing as it was past its aeroplane shelf life.
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