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Post by GO30 on Jun 16, 2024 21:38:34 GMT 12
A mate is big into solar installs, mostly commercial but some residential and rural. We was yacking around the plethora of solar companies popping up near weekly and how some sell so cheap it's hard to impossible to get a look in. I said then offer a cheap panel option but spell it out the Pros/Cons of both, we do and it seems to be appreciated. But then it got a little scary. He said he'd never sell the cheaper panels on principal as they are a huge fire risk.
On sussing more 'cheaper' appears to be mainly 'China'. The 2 main suppliers to us are China and the US.
NZ's rules around Solar are AUS/NZ and the Aussies tend to lead this one. The current Regs are 2014. Someone here tried to update them a couple of years ago to the US Standard but it got knocked back.
The US leads these things and has far more history than we have.
Some here are now refusing to use whole ranges of panels and/or are putting in what are effectively systems that do not comply with the 2014 Regs we use.
The niggle appears to be the cheaper panels don't have a whotsit installed in them.
The US panels do have them fitted as their Regs demand them.
Worse is far too many of the newer players in the market don't know this. The old heads do know so they either just stay away or they install what's needed in the system. That goes against the Regs so the installer and the home owner run a massive risk if insurance finds out.
The whotsit is a device, I'm going to say a form of relay but do not quote me. Should the panel have a hissy fit the whotsit stops it frying the wiring leading to smoke, flames and fire engines.
Basically as cheaper panels age they become very prone to turning into micro welders and burning things down. The Whotsit stops that happening.
One aspect scaring mate is that age when they start melting down is 10-15 years. What's happened in the last decade? A boom in solar installs due to the availability of cheaper mostly Chinese made gear.
That math is not good and it is supported by the growing number of solar install fire we're getting. That makes it doubly not good.
Leaky Homes Part 8..Solar Attacks
As it pans out our system doesn't have these whotsits.......Aghhh!!!!! But they can be retro fitted quite easily, one to a panel.
Find out more in the next day or so, fitted a day or so after.
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Post by ComfortZone on Jun 17, 2024 10:56:12 GMT 12
As it pans out our system doesn't have these whotsits.......Aghhh!!!!! But they can be retro fitted quite easily, one to a panel.
Find out more in the next day or so, fitted a day or so after.
Very interesting, especially as the vast majority of solar panels sold/installed in USA are of Chinese manufacture, of course of varying quality depending upon manufacturer/branding. I wonder if this is the "whatsit" you refer to, ie a Rapid Shut Down device Also one of many techo discussions on solar panel fire ratings here There is also mention of panel mounted "Fire Safety Modules" but can't find too much detail
Look forward to your next update
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Post by fish on Jun 17, 2024 11:02:49 GMT 12
And here is me eyeing up some 100w flexible panels from MicroMall for $117 each - including GST
There is a massive range in pricing for panels - massive.
Last time I got the top shelf ones from Enertec and they shat themselves just before the warranty expired. Very un-impressed. I've started hearing bad things from other people about Enertec panels.
I would really like to install some quality rigid panels on the boat, but there is a substantial problem of how and where to install them. Unless I go whole hog and do a solar arch I can't see how I can do it. And an arch would cost many times more than the panels and make it impossible to fish of the boat (among other things)
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Post by em on Jun 17, 2024 11:36:39 GMT 12
And here is me eyeing up some 100w flexible panels from MicroMall for $117 each - including GST There is a massive range in pricing for panels - massive. Last time I got the top shelf ones from Enertec and they shat themselves just before the warranty expired. Very un-impressed. I've started hearing bad things from other people about Enertec panels. I would really like to install some quality rigid panels on the boat, but there is a substantial problem of how and where to install them. Unless I go whole hog and do a solar arch I can't see how I can do it. And an arch would cost many times more than the panels and make it impossible to fish of the boat (among other things) Yeah I’ve had an enertec flexible dead out of the box . I’m putting some long skinny ones from lux solar on the boat soon , one either side just above windows. they were the only skinny ones I could find in NZ . From what I can gather from quite a bit of research they are all avarege quality and 99% Chinese made with around 4-5 years life span . But you can get very flash ones from solbian in Europe somewhere for massive dollars or Giocosolutions in Italy . Both websites and also mini650 and IMOCA googling will bring up some innovative mounting ideas . |
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Post by jim on Jun 17, 2024 11:56:24 GMT 12
Also anticipating Go's update... having recently added a few big chinese to our off grid. amongst our array are some BP Solar panels from 1994 that are still trucking along (although i havent worked out exactly how much their output has faded) - quite dear at the time.
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Post by harrytom on Jun 17, 2024 12:27:03 GMT 12
Previous owner of my cav 26 installed some cheap panels,we were siting having happy hr or too,next minute smoke appeard from engine bay and it was the wires to the panels melting,that was what 7yrs ago so they have been around awhile,Thomas pulled panel apart and said(some technical term) wasnt there.Think they were the ones BP petrol were selling through there stations.Fitted 2 that Thomas recommened and presume still operating today,they werent cheap at time of purchase.
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Post by GO30 on Jun 17, 2024 13:21:50 GMT 12
Very interesting, especially as the vast majority of solar panels sold/installed in USA are of Chinese manufacture, of course of varying quality depending upon manufacturer/branding. I wonder if this is the "whatsit" you refer to, ie a Rapid Shut Down device Also one of many techo discussions on solar panel fire ratings here There is also mention of panel mounted "Fire Safety Modules" but can't find too much detail
Look forward to your next update
The US is a very big manufacturer as well as China, they are the 2 main players.
Yes it is something around rapid shut down or isolating the problem panel quickly to stop the panel licking off a fire.
Also notice that Energysage is a US company and refers to the rapid shut down being required by US Regs. Unlike the Aussie rules we follow that mention nothing as technology has moved on way faster then the Regs.
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Post by GO30 on Jun 17, 2024 13:28:15 GMT 12
And here is me eyeing up some 100w flexible panels from MicroMall for $117 each - including GST There is a massive range in pricing for panels - massive. I sussed them awhile back for gear but after having a good eyes on decided it made me not happy and went another route. Their warehouse was, possibly still is, about 30m from where I'm writing this. They maybe fine but the operation had a $2 shop feel about it. That'sa problem with the interweb, on that they looked good but in person not so much for this fella. They were down at Field Days so that suggests they are here for the long haul.
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Post by GO30 on Jun 17, 2024 13:36:31 GMT 12
Previous owner of my cav 26 installed some cheap panels,we were siting having happy hr or too,next minute smoke appeard from engine bay and it was the wires to the panels melting,that was what 7yrs ago so they have been around awhile,Thomas pulled panel apart and said(some technical term) wasnt there.Think they were the ones BP petrol were selling through there stations.Fitted 2 that Thomas recommened and presume still operating today,they werent cheap at time of purchase. And BOOM!, from my understanding that melting wiring and missing 'some technical term' (what I'm calling a whotsit and I'm pretty sure CZ got closer to or spot on the right name in his post) is exactly the problem that has Mate so excited and scared.
Imagine if that was part of an array on your house.
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Post by fish on Jun 17, 2024 14:38:35 GMT 12
And here is me eyeing up some 100w flexible panels from MicroMall for $117 each - including GST There is a massive range in pricing for panels - massive. I sussed them awhile back for gear but after having a good eyes on decided it made me not happy and went another route. Their warehouse was, possibly still is, about 30m from where I'm writing this. They maybe fine but the operation had a $2 shop feel about it. That'sa problem with the interweb, on that they looked good but in person not so much for this fella. They were down at Field Days so that suggests they are here for the long haul.
Certainly for that price for a whole panel, not far off what other places charge for postage and packaging, I would go in eyes very wide open. Flexible panel cheaper than most rigid panels of the same capacity, by a big margin. There are a number of attributes you can see on solar panels, and then the un-seen / un-seeable factor of is it worth it. At that price I would treat them as disposable. That is an element I don't have too much of a problem with, but the safety factor is a biggy for me. Don't want to set the boat on fire. In saying that, would my top-priced Enertec ones have had the do-hicky on them? Post Enertec I am of the view I can pay top dollar and still get budget quality and low spec. Question on the do-hicky, Would a fuse on the panel side in the wiring not achieve the same protection? Esp in HT's case? I'm guessing that as they aren't used they don't. On rigid panel installation, does anyone here know where to get fittings from so I can install a panel on a single free-standing pole attached to the pushpit? That would be a tidy solution for me. Ideally with an articulated joint at the top so I can turn the panel toward the sun. I've seen them occasionally on Gulf short handed boats, but can't for the life of me find any fittings. |
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Post by em on Jun 17, 2024 20:16:56 GMT 12
I sussed them awhile back for gear but after having a good eyes on decided it made me not happy and went another route. Their warehouse was, possibly still is, about 30m from where I'm writing this. They maybe fine but the operation had a $2 shop feel about it. That'sa problem with the interweb, on that they looked good but in person not so much for this fella. They were down at Field Days so that suggests they are here for the long haul.
Certainly for that price for a whole panel, not far off what other places charge for postage and packaging, I would go in eyes very wide open. Flexible panel cheaper than most rigid panels of the same capacity, by a big margin. There are a number of attributes you can see on solar panels, and then the un-seen / un-seeable factor of is it worth it. At that price I would treat them as disposable. That is an element I don't have too much of a problem with, but the safety factor is a biggy for me. Don't want to set the boat on fire. In saying that, would my top-priced Enertec ones have had the do-hicky on them? Post Enertec I am of the view I can pay top dollar and still get budget quality and low spec. Question on the do-hicky, Would a fuse on the panel side in the wiring not achieve the same protection? Esp in HT's case? I'm guessing that as they aren't used they don't. On rigid panel installation, does anyone here know where to get fittings from so I can install a panel on a single free-standing pole attached to the pushpit? That would be a tidy solution for me. Ideally with an articulated joint at the top so I can turn the panel toward the sun. I've seen them occasionally on Gulf short handed boats, but can't for the life of me find any fittings. I understand you do a bit of windsurfing ? Maststep universals are what some of the mini 650s are using to tilt the panels and all sorts of trickery to operate the tilting including ropes and cleats . yeah I’m treating the flexible panels as disposable they are the only low drag , gennaker sheet option for what I want . Last resort would be off the pushpit on mini650 style mount , Flexi panels on a foam/glass sheet , universal on a pole with some sort of railblaza gizmo on the pushpit |
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Post by GO30 on Jun 20, 2024 18:04:52 GMT 12
On rigid panel installation, does anyone here know where to get fittings from so I can install a panel on a single free-standing pole attached to the pushpit? That would be a tidy solution for me. Ideally with an articulated joint at the top so I can turn the panel toward the sun. I've seen them occasionally on Gulf short handed boats, but can't for the life of me find any fittings. That mob Railblazer have universal joints. Absolutely no idea if that shit is strong enough or not though. |
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Post by fish on Jun 20, 2024 18:46:23 GMT 12
On rigid panel installation, does anyone here know where to get fittings from so I can install a panel on a single free-standing pole attached to the pushpit? That would be a tidy solution for me. Ideally with an articulated joint at the top so I can turn the panel toward the sun. I've seen them occasionally on Gulf short handed boats, but can't for the life of me find any fittings. That mob Railblazer have universal joints. Absolutely no idea if that shit is strong enough or not though. Yeah, I've got railblazer stuff on the rail already. Might be ok for a 20 or 40w panel, I was after 1 big panel like 100 or 150w or something. Mount it out of the way on a pole and articulate it to face the sun. I've been pondering either a railbalzer joint or a windsurfing UJ, but the real question I've got is how much power do I need? Pondering getting or installing a freezer on the boat. Can get the brass monkey ones cheap as chips, but sounds like they have less insulation thickness in them than the moonbeams expensive ones. It is really hard to know from the specs how many Ah any particular unit will use on my boat in my situation. Solar panels are cheap as chips, even good rigid ones. I just don't have the real estate to mount them, and haven't found or come up with the hardware to mount them out of the way. The crux of the question really is how much do I want a freezer on the boat? everything else depends on that. In saying that, if I found a freezer that used bugger all power and cost less than a moonbeam, or I worked out how to do lots of solar, then everything would fall into place. |
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Post by GO30 on Jun 21, 2024 10:49:57 GMT 12
Solar panels are cheap as chips, even good rigid ones. Isn't this very treat about the downsides that come with 'cheap as chips'?
Think 'lifetime cost'. You may have to spend a little more on purchase but over the life span nice savings. In my corner of the marine game if you don't do that you may as well save petrol and just set fire to your money on the kitchen table.
I was about to spend 5 hundy on 2 x 330W high output panels but due to recently acquired knowledge it'll be more like twice that now. I just don't want the grief or even knowledge the grief is very potentially in there relaxing for a year or 3 before putting the hammer down.....or pre-cooking the heard.
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Post by fish on Jun 21, 2024 11:15:33 GMT 12
Solar panels are cheap as chips, even good rigid ones. Isn't this very treat about the downsides that come with 'cheap as chips'?
Think 'lifetime cost'. You may have to spend a little more on purchase but over the life span nice savings. In my corner of the marine game if you don't do that you may as well save petrol and just set fire to your money on the kitchen table.
I was about to spend 5 hundy on 2 x 330W high output panels but due to recently acquired knowledge it'll be more like twice that now. I just don't want the grief or even knowledge the grief is very potentially in there relaxing for a year or 3 before putting the hammer down.....or pre-cooking the heard.
In the context of getting a freezer on my boat, the solar panels are not the cost limiting factor. I could put on the most top shelf moonbeams expensive unobtainium plated ones, and they still wouldn't be the cost limiting factor. What type of freezer and where to put said solar panels are the cost limiting factors. Where to put the panels isn't just a cost limiting factor, it's an outright limiting factor. Nothing a bigger boat wouldn't fix, the cost of which makes solar panels look completely free. This all started because the Brass Monkey portable fridge / freezers are $250-$380 ish. I end up walking past them a lot, and they annoy me. I think it is called consumerism. Sounds like they work perfectly well, although they appear to have marginal insulation on them. Their own spec sheets say they have almost exactly twice the power consumption of the bottom of the line Engel unit, which has reasonable insulation and a fancy sawafuji swing pump. So I could go a portable Engel unit, or do a full compressor install from Fridgetech in my existing ice box. The great irony with that is I don't actually know what thickness or quality the insulation is on the 38 yr old icebox. I suspect I'd need to renovate it if I wanted to install a proper 12v compressor freezer. Then, if I renovate the icebox insulation, I'll probably want to get rid of the 38yr old mustard yellow formica, which would lead to re-doing all the worktop surfaces in the galley, which would lead to a full interior refit and re-model. All so the kids can have iceblocks on our summer cruise. The scope for scope creep is phenomenal. But if I get a very good efficiency freezer, I can probably get away with a small (50w ish) panel somewhere and not need a 200w array. and perhaps run the motor a tad more. Then there is the risk I can spend moonbeams on the boat and we have another lockdown or a summer of La Nina with constant N-easters, rain and swell. Hmm. |
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