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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2022 18:54:24 GMT 12
It is still hard to think something fishy isn't going on. What with all the secrecy from the Courts and obfuscation from Corrections. I sure hope he was doing something fucking awesome to be locked up for 2 years without a trial, and not able to even see his wife. Whats a bet all he was doing was putting superglue in the locks of the control cabinets at the cell phone towers. Initial indications from the court suggest Philip will have his trial heard in late 2023, meaning he would have spent almost two years in prison before having his case heard. That time frame is not unusual in the justice system currently, but Hague has concerns with Philip's ongoing detention in the absence of a conviction. "It's very concerning, first of all, that he's held in custody for that length of time without receiving a trial, and secondly, the conditions of which he's being held, especially the challenges with communication." Hague said Philip had not seen his wife since December, either in person or via teleconference, "as is his right". Pre-arranged calls had been stymied on multiple occasions, Philip's wife had claimed. The lawyer also referred specifically to an affidavit he had sent to Philip to sign in mid-July. He said Corrections still has not scanned and emailed the document back, despite assurances they would do so. Without the affidavit, there was little substance for further bail appeals. "He's received it, he's signed it, and Corrections has not scanned or returned it to me like they normally would for any other prisoner," Hague said. "Corrections has also repeatedly failed to facilitate phone calls, even when they're scheduled in advance." Hague had complained to the Office of the Prison Inspectorate and Corrections central regional manager on behalf of his client. Corrections is screwed. It is nationwide, not just Spring Hill. Corrections are short staffed have people off sick, they have vacancies galore. Is it right? No. It's damn right outrageous. But it isn't limited to this prisoner.
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Post by em on Jul 29, 2022 19:00:55 GMT 12
It is still hard to think something fishy isn't going on. What with all the secrecy from the Courts and obfuscation from Corrections. I sure hope he was doing something fucking awesome to be locked up for 2 years without a trial, and not able to even see his wife. Whats a bet all he was doing was putting superglue in the locks of the control cabinets at the cell phone towers. Initial indications from the court suggest Philip will have his trial heard in late 2023, meaning he would have spent almost two years in prison before having his case heard. That time frame is not unusual in the justice system currently, but Hague has concerns with Philip's ongoing detention in the absence of a conviction. "It's very concerning, first of all, that he's held in custody for that length of time without receiving a trial, and secondly, the conditions of which he's being held, especially the challenges with communication." Hague said Philip had not seen his wife since December, either in person or via teleconference, "as is his right". Pre-arranged calls had been stymied on multiple occasions, Philip's wife had claimed. The lawyer also referred specifically to an affidavit he had sent to Philip to sign in mid-July. He said Corrections still has not scanned and emailed the document back, despite assurances they would do so. Without the affidavit, there was little substance for further bail appeals. "He's received it, he's signed it, and Corrections has not scanned or returned it to me like they normally would for any other prisoner," Hague said. "Corrections has also repeatedly failed to facilitate phone calls, even when they're scheduled in advance." Hague had complained to the Office of the Prison Inspectorate and Corrections central regional manager on behalf of his client. As much as I like a good conspiracy me , what the hell has he done or was planning to do that even corrections is dicking him around ? . we don’t have the level of security around our infrastructure that the UK or the states do . It would be very simple to fuck up a dam , poison the water supply , blow up marsden point , or take out the main transmission line for the north island on a farm somewhere . So I get the concerns around the fear of copycat nut jobs with intercranial blown gaskets having a go too . sure the Govt is a fucked one but no need to cause wide spread societal harm cause you have twisted undies .
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Post by fish on Jul 29, 2022 19:57:33 GMT 12
It is still hard to think something fishy isn't going on. What with all the secrecy from the Courts and obfuscation from Corrections. I sure hope he was doing something fucking awesome to be locked up for 2 years without a trial, and not able to even see his wife. Whats a bet all he was doing was putting superglue in the locks of the control cabinets at the cell phone towers. Initial indications from the court suggest Philip will have his trial heard in late 2023, meaning he would have spent almost two years in prison before having his case heard. That time frame is not unusual in the justice system currently, but Hague has concerns with Philip's ongoing detention in the absence of a conviction. "It's very concerning, first of all, that he's held in custody for that length of time without receiving a trial, and secondly, the conditions of which he's being held, especially the challenges with communication." Hague said Philip had not seen his wife since December, either in person or via teleconference, "as is his right". Pre-arranged calls had been stymied on multiple occasions, Philip's wife had claimed. The lawyer also referred specifically to an affidavit he had sent to Philip to sign in mid-July. He said Corrections still has not scanned and emailed the document back, despite assurances they would do so. Without the affidavit, there was little substance for further bail appeals. "He's received it, he's signed it, and Corrections has not scanned or returned it to me like they normally would for any other prisoner," Hague said. "Corrections has also repeatedly failed to facilitate phone calls, even when they're scheduled in advance." Hague had complained to the Office of the Prison Inspectorate and Corrections central regional manager on behalf of his client. Corrections is screwed. It is nationwide, not just Spring Hill. Corrections are short staffed have people off sick, they have vacancies galore. Is it right? No. It's damn right outrageous. But it isn't limited to this prisoner. Oh dear Deleted, I have to agree with you. How can we possibly have a good debate if I keep on agreeing with you. Should we start flinging personal insults? I hear you are a hopeless sailor and don't know your port from your rum.
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Post by fish on Jul 29, 2022 20:02:31 GMT 12
It is still hard to think something fishy isn't going on. What with all the secrecy from the Courts and obfuscation from Corrections. I sure hope he was doing something fucking awesome to be locked up for 2 years without a trial, and not able to even see his wife. Whats a bet all he was doing was putting superglue in the locks of the control cabinets at the cell phone towers. Initial indications from the court suggest Philip will have his trial heard in late 2023, meaning he would have spent almost two years in prison before having his case heard. That time frame is not unusual in the justice system currently, but Hague has concerns with Philip's ongoing detention in the absence of a conviction. "It's very concerning, first of all, that he's held in custody for that length of time without receiving a trial, and secondly, the conditions of which he's being held, especially the challenges with communication." Hague said Philip had not seen his wife since December, either in person or via teleconference, "as is his right". Pre-arranged calls had been stymied on multiple occasions, Philip's wife had claimed. The lawyer also referred specifically to an affidavit he had sent to Philip to sign in mid-July. He said Corrections still has not scanned and emailed the document back, despite assurances they would do so. Without the affidavit, there was little substance for further bail appeals. "He's received it, he's signed it, and Corrections has not scanned or returned it to me like they normally would for any other prisoner," Hague said. "Corrections has also repeatedly failed to facilitate phone calls, even when they're scheduled in advance." Hague had complained to the Office of the Prison Inspectorate and Corrections central regional manager on behalf of his client. As much as I like a good conspiracy me , what the hell has he done or was planning to do that even corrections is dicking him around ? . we don’t have the level of security around our infrastructure that the UK or the states do . It would be very simple to fuck up a dam , poison the water supply , blow up marsden point , or take out the main transmission line for the north island on a farm somewhere . So I get the concerns around the fear of copycat nut jobs with intercranial blown gaskets having a go too . sure the Govt is a fucked one but no need to cause wide spread societal harm cause you have twisted undies . Hence my statement that I hope he has done something fucking awesome to be dicked around this much. That need to cause societal harm sounds like a big hurdle for a conviction. Certainly hope it was worth it. Real shame they wont tell us what he actually did. PS, having worked in infrastructure in the UK, I don't think there is any difference in security between here and there. And from what I understand, the US is even more lax. Most of their stuff blows up by itself, without the help of left or right wing nutters. Our big water supplies are secure. The small council ones, careful what you complain about, you may justify the need for 3 waters reform...
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2022 0:22:02 GMT 12
Cops and prosecutors regularly get things wrong. I don't know where I stand on this. I wanted to do some research to find out how regularly regularly is, but can't find any stats. It's normal in NZ for * a person charged with a Category 4 offence to be held in remand without bail till their trial * for trials to take several months to start and then run for several months during which time the person is remanded Examples: * Grace Milanes murderer waited 13mths for his trial without bail (2019) * Hayden poulter, NZS first serial murderer waited 12mths and plead guilty (1997) * A woman who bought a rape claim against her brother caused him to be remanded for 8months before his trial found him not guilty (2022) * Mosque terrorist/murderer was locked up for 13mths before his trial Further it seems people who are bailed for cat 1-3 offences get to wait longer: Example: * Waihope damage too gcsb satellite domes, bailed but waited 2.5yrs for court case (2010) and found not guilty even tho they did it. On the balance of all things I think that I prefer people charged with Cat 4 offences to be locked up until the trial outcome. This is based on my assumption that not guilty verdicts happen substantially less than guilty ones. But it's gonna suck to the extreme if they are then found Not Guilty after being locked away. But by the same token, doesn't being out on bail cause as much heartache if you are innocent.... Waiting even longer for your trial with your life on hold. Some actual stats on how often Cat 4 charges are dropped or people are found not guilty would be interesting to support said assumption.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2022 4:36:28 GMT 12
Who is behind the bomb threats at the NZ schools??
Scott Watson 23 yrs inside, maybe or not innocent but convicted with no bodies but can be released if he admits his crime.
Rainbow warrior French terrorist served 10 rs? before released to French custody.
Who was that guy from Iran/Iraq who got jailed then finally released and ended owning a restaurant in Auckland??
Just a few examples of nz inconsistent sentences,so What has PHILIPS actually done??threatened "Jacinda" caught tampering with infrastructure or just being held as a secret witness?
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Post by fish on Jul 30, 2022 11:06:09 GMT 12
Cops and prosecutors regularly get things wrong. I don't know where I stand on this. I wanted to do some research to find out how regularly regularly is, but can't find any stats. It's normal in NZ for * a person charged with a Category 4 offence to be held in remand without bail till their trial * for trials to take several months to start and then run for several months during which time the person is remanded Examples: * Grace Milanes murderer waited 13mths for his trial without bail (2019) * Hayden poulter, NZS first serial murderer waited 12mths and plead guilty (1997) * A woman who bought a rape claim against her brother caused him to be remanded for 8months before his trial found him not guilty (2022) * Mosque terrorist/murderer was locked up for 13mths before his trial Further it seems people who are bailed for cat 1-3 offences get to wait longer: Example: * Waihope damage too gcsb satellite domes, bailed but waited 2.5yrs for court case (2010) and found not guilty even tho they did it. On the balance of all things I think that I prefer people charged with Cat 4 offences to be locked up until the trial outcome. This is based on my assumption that not guilty verdicts happen substantially less than guilty ones. But it's gonna suck to the extreme if they are then found Not Guilty after being locked away. But by the same token, doesn't being out on bail cause as much heartache if you are innocent.... Waiting even longer for your trial with your life on hold. Some actual stats on how often Cat 4 charges are dropped or people are found not guilty would be interesting to support said assumption. You've some very good points in here. I've no idea what a cat 4 charge is, but I get the basic principle. In cases where there is a dead body and a clear link to the charge, absolutely zero problem in holding people on remand. Grace Milan's killer, the serial killer. The mosque masacre was such a no-brainer I don't think we should even include it in the discussions. The main issue with the Philips case is we don't know what he is alleged to have done, so we have to guess wildly, which makes for great forum banter. But a good example is the Waihope 3. Depending on where you sit on the political spectrum, this could be a blatant attack on the security apparatus of not just our country but the free world (referring 5 eyes). Or it could be a bit of vandalism with honest but misguided motives that cost the govt a few $10's of thousands to fix. No one was actually killed, but it caused embarassment to our govt, that they can't keep key security infrastructure secure. Key point govt embarassment. Now, where does Philips sit on the spetrum. Did he have 100kg of cynaide, and he was about to drop it into a water resevour? Lock him up forever. Or had he found a technical way to take out a comms / cellular / internet system, possibly with the intent of thwarting the GCSB or SIS from spying on him and his mates, and by doing so would cause significant embarrassment to the govt? For the sake of a good argument, I'm going to take the position that what he was doing / planning / did would cause HUGE embarrassment to the govt. This is on the basis that they don't want anyone to know what it was, and thus how easy it is to do. It is clearly something that is very difficult for the govt to make secure. Noting he was initial charged with willful damage, aka vandalism. We don't have any dead bodies. We don't have any terrorism charges. So this sounds more on the 'Waihope 3' end of the spectrum than Grace Milan's killer. Cutting a long story short, if what he has / was doing primarily causes the govt embarrassment, I think it is wrong to dick him around so much. If there was some malice in what he was doing, and it legitimately posed a threat to public safety, then yes, lock him up. I would like to think there was a proper threat to public safety too. Taking out the cell phone network could be argued that people couldn't call an Ambulance. Around Auckland you can't get an ambulance anyway, so it would be tenuous to lock a guy up for 2 years pre-trial on that element alone. I am interested in the details of the sabotage charge and the element of risk to public safety. Andrew Little may well be liable to a charge for the state of the public health system?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2022 11:13:30 GMT 12
Yawn 🥱
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2022 11:26:02 GMT 12
The main issue with the Philips case is we don't know what he is alleged to have done, so we have to guess wildly, which makes for great forum banter. Who is 'we'? I do know what he is alleged to have done. So I am clearly not part of "we". I am confident that with a little more research you could find out as well... And then we can both be the informed silent unable to argue our opinion
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2022 11:31:49 GMT 12
I've no idea what a cat 4 charge is, but I get the basic principle. This is just the ones from the crimes act. Section Offence Section 68(1) Party to murder outside New Zealand Section 68(2) Inciting murder outside New Zealand (not committed) Section 69(1) Party to crime of treason, inciting to mutiny, or espionage outside New Zealand Section 69(2) Inciting treason, mutiny, or espionage outside New Zealand (not committed) Section 73 Treason (or conspiracy to commit treason) Section 74(3) Attempted treason Section 76 Accessory to, or failure to prevent, treason Section 77 Inciting to mutiny Section 78 Espionage Section 79(1) SabotageSection 92(1) Piracy Section 95 Attempts to commit piracy Section 96 Conspiring to commit piracy Section 98(1) Dealing in slaves Section 100 Judicial corruption Section 101 Bribery of judicial officer, etc Section 102 Corruption and bribery of Minister of the Crown Section 103 Corruption and bribery of member of Parliament Section 172 Murder Section 173 Attempted murder Section 174 Attempting to procure murder (not committed) Section 175 Conspiracy to murder Section 177 Manslaughter Section 178 Infanticide
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2022 11:43:14 GMT 12
It is interesting that we are allowed to know his name now. Were we not allowed to know earlier? I can confirm that his name was suppressed and all the charges were suppressed, everything was suppressed, until just the other day. Previous publication and discussion in the other thread was a breach of that suppression order. The suppression order is understandable, but it’s also frustrating. It’s ostensibly there to prevent copycats, which it may well have done – it’s impossible to know. It has also fostered confusion in a way that is likely to encourage the distrust that serves as the context of this situation in the first place. As fish points out, there's an irony here, that a conspiracy theorist who believes the government is oppressive is now being held without trial and against his human rights. Until recently, Graham Philip had name suppression. His name was nevertheless plastered over social media, including this forum, in blatant violation of the court. Many of those breaking the suppression orders outside this forum, did so under their own names. One person even did it on camera, in front of a room full of people. No one, it seems, has faced consequences. Suppression orders were placed verbally by the judge at a court hearing. Unless you’re in the habit of lurking around courthouses in the central North Island, and happened to be within earshot of that specific hearing, you wouldn’t know. It's clear from other posts on here, that many have a distrust for authority, and are inclined to believe there’s a conspiracy between mainstream institutions (the Government, the police, the media, the courts) to suppress the truth. Prone to collecting morsels of information and mashing them together into a narrative structure, even if they don’t fit. If there are gaps, they fill them with whatever sounds right. One day they see a picture of a friendly-looking man named Graham. He believes many of the same things they do. He’s in jail. No, they can’t know why. The MSM is not reporting it. Interesting morsels; the narrative writes itself. Predictably, based on these bare facts, his supporters called him a political prisoner, jailed for wrongthink and held without charge. They called for Amnesty International and the Human Rights Commission to get involved. They raised money for him, and organised protests outside the courts. They even posted his handwritten letters from prison. Some called for retribution against authorities. Few of these people knew what he was accused of doing, and many were incurious to find out. He was already the perfect character to slot into their narrative structure; the plucky truth-teller, crushed by the state. Those who knew what was happening could not correct the misinformation, because doing so would be illegal. Name suppression has since lifted. You can now publish his name and the charges he faces. This has probably made the situation worse. An ordinary man named Graham is facing obscure and sinister sounding charges of sabotage. How those two facts connect remains a secret; a hole in the narrative structure, begging to be filled in. Since the NZ Herald published the existence of this case on Friday, the online dot-connecting has been rampant. People inclined to both support and revile him, have come to wild conclusions, based on the meagre public details available about what he supposedly did. Unsurprisingly, the speculation tends to align with their existing views – an innocent man, held unjustly; a saboteur, rightfully imprisoned. The end result is that potential copycats now have a rich vein of sabotage-adjacent ideas to tap, and the net amount of confusion in the world has increased. There are no winners. He deserves a fair trial, which may require that details of the allegations not be publicly litigated beforehand. It would be hard to engineer a situation more likely to increase distrust in mainstream institutions, which has come at a particularly unhelpful time. An online community, primed to be suspicious of authority, knows one of their own is in prison, but the authorities say they’re not allowed to know why. Without concrete information, this community is free to haphazardly speculate, getting basic facts wrong and indulging their instinct that a conspiracy is taking place. None of us who do know what’s happening are allowed to correct it, and are therefore unwillingly implicated in the conspiracy. It’s likely that by the time we can write about this case fulsomely – probably not for more than a year – the horse will have bolted. These narrative structures will have had months to form. Partial information can be as problematic as outright misinformation. Many of the conspiracy-fuelled explanations of the world, particularly involving vaccines, contain information that is partly true. During a ranging infodemic, it pays to be alert to how this happens. Unfortunately, the court has given us an ideal example. Plagerized from: www.stuff.co.nz/national/300616031/graham-philip-is-charged-with-sabotage-thats-all-we-can-tell-you
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Post by fish on Jul 30, 2022 13:01:38 GMT 12
The main issue with the Philips case is we don't know what he is alleged to have done, so we have to guess wildly, which makes for great forum banter. Who is 'we'? I do know what he is alleged to have done. So I am clearly not part of "we". I am confident that with a little more research you could find out as well... And then we can both be the informed silent unable to argue our opinion So I just googled "what did Graham P... then it auto completed to... ilips do? NZ" Indicates this is a common search at the moment. There were a number of MSM websites covering yesterday's story. I clicked on two websites that looked like non-msm. My laptop (provided by work, with all sorts of safety protocols on it) blocked me from looking at the first website. The second website diverted to some other website and my laptop went nuts with bright red warnings say "this website has been reported as UNSAFE, go back now!!!!!" So it'd be far easier of you just PM'ed me the gossip. Either that or I will have to try a search from my phone, which seems to have less censorship / safety measures on it.
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