|
|
Post by GO30 on Aug 18, 2022 18:45:15 GMT 12
Who has them on their boat, at home, work or where ever?
What, if any, steps have you taken around suppression should one go into meltdown?
I have 1 x 200ah lithium in the ornament. Hadn't thought what I'd do should it turn evil but after having done so recently I think I have 2 options, either the battery leaves the boat or the crew leave the boat. I have no method of extinguishing or suppressing a lithium fire. Strangely Nana, sorry YNZ, want me to carry 6kg of fire extinguishers yet the most likely source of a fire will just kick sand in the extinguishers faces.
The smaller install at the farm was specified with Lithium but I went big flash gels for simplicity. The bigger system going in with the house may have lithium, we'll see.
|
|
|
|
Post by em on Aug 18, 2022 20:25:03 GMT 12
I’ve got LifePo4 at home . Had VRLA batteries of a top brand , cost 8K and lasted 4.5 years . Took 450kg of batteries to the scrappy and got 280 bucks for them . Now have 80KG of lithium phosphate in two cells , takes up a wee corner of the battery shed that was once filled with 12 monster batts . Love the buggers , very simple to charge , can take a huge charge current to any stage of charging and hold it …..no bulk then absorb then float bullshit that takes all day . Hour and a half on the generator this morning and they were done . On a sunny morning they are charged by 11 o’clock . VRLAs would take all day and that’s a sunny day which are rare in winter . Going to add another one in January ….that’s the other bonus you can add another battery and It won’t put the bank out of whack . Going to put a wee victron Bluetooth solar controller and small LifePo4 batt on the Elliott . No more deep cycle monsters holding us back . Bought these www.powerplus-energy.com.au/life-series-premium/ and they are a joy to install and very boring because there is no “range anxiety “ generator use has gone down massively too . No matter how big your system is you are fucked with a winter like this one . LifePo4 are very safe ….even cranking massive Amps into these with the generator they don’t even get warm . and the added bonus is they should last way longer than an lead/acid battery so quite cost effective |
|
|
|
Post by GO30 on Aug 19, 2022 14:22:14 GMT 12
Sounds a bit fancy em.
The question was more around what have to done/planed/have in place should one go into meltdown?
It is a question being asked by many lately due to the inability of existing systems to deal with lithium. With so much now being powered by lithium, ferries, cars, trucks, houses, commercial buildings etc surely this question will be being asked by insurance and regulators sooner than later.
I saw a demo last week where they got a small lithium, only 50ahs, put it into meltdown and then through it in a tank of water. After 4 days sitting with 8ft of water over it it was still bubbling away, it was a bit freaky.
I know what some are doing, encasing the batteries in a steel or kevlar boxes. The idea being while that won't stop the fire it will give the crew time to get the hell off. That seems a tad 1/2 arsed IMO.
On thinking how much I and YNZ haven't considered lithium fire I was wondering if anyone else had and what their plans were or if they even had one.
|
|
|
|
Post by em on Aug 19, 2022 20:08:33 GMT 12
Sounds a bit fancy em. The question was more around what have to done/planed/have in place should one go into meltdown? It is a question being asked by many lately due to the inability of existing systems to deal with lithium. With so much now being powered by lithium, ferries, cars, trucks, houses, commercial buildings etc surely this question will be being asked by insurance and regulators sooner than later. I saw a demo last week where they got a small lithium, only 50ahs, put it into meltdown and then through it in a tank of water. After 4 days sitting with 8ft of water over it it was still bubbling away, it was a bit freaky. I know what some are doing, encasing the batteries in a steel or kevlar boxes. The idea being while that won't stop the fire it will give the crew time to get the hell off. That seems a tad 1/2 arsed IMO. On thinking how much I and YNZ haven't considered lithium fire I was wondering if anyone else had and what their plans were or if they even had one. Get LifePo4 and you shouldn’t have a fire issue unless the boat catches on fire from another source . In that case get the Hekia off the boat |
|
|
|
Post by GO30 on Aug 19, 2022 20:53:25 GMT 12
Your house has vastly superior fire protection systems than the sophisticated systems found in commercial aircraft and large ships, that's unique if not a world first. I'm siding with LR and ABS who both have just come out voicing concerns around lithium batteries. If the 2 biggest regulators of things like boats planes and shitloads else say that out loud then there's gotta be, dare I say it.... more than just smoke firing them up. Maybe they need to have a suss of your place  |
|
|
|
Post by BG on Aug 20, 2022 6:58:10 GMT 12
What fire supression system do you have in place for your LA batteries? They are just as likely to catch on fire as Li.
LFP and LTO are actually showing to be safer than LA. You almost certainly have LFP in your boat unless you got some weird custom made exotic.
You have the same risks for both LA and Li. Being...
1 external temperature due to a fire near the battery
2 puncture due to physically damaging the battery
3 over charge current
4 dropping a spanner across the terminals (and then it is the spanner that is on fire, not the battery)
Any of the above on a Li or LA battery will have similar results... Being a uncontrolled fire that you cannot put out.
The 6kg of extinguishers you have will also be useless against thermal runaway in a LA battery.
To your specific question. You can purchase fire blankets which will stop the fire from spreading. But on a boat this is kind of a joke as it will still burn through the hull.
|
|
|
|
Post by GO30 on Aug 20, 2022 12:14:11 GMT 12
That's a freaky coincidence. One tiny power tool battery and a entire house is gone. www.stuff.co.nz/national/129586668/unplugged-lithiumion-battery-spontaneously-combusts-destroying-auckland-homeThat was the 35th house fire caused by batteries this year, according to the story. That's 1 house per week being destroyed by a battery, holy crap that's significant. After reading that article I'm happy I keep 98% of my batteries 25m down the backyard in the mancave. I have no plan on how to deal with my boat lithium if it goes rouge. I know the extinguishers are more likely to make the mess bigger than smaller so they are out of the game. It wasn't until the last few weeks, while I've been doing some work on the assorted battery ferries being built in NZ, Singapore and Malaysia, that I've started to bring all the bits n bods together that are clearly showing it is quite a big concern worldwide and by many 'safety based' authorities. Sure I'm not expecting it to meltdown and the chances are it won't but that's the exact same mind set that was in place when most accidents in the history of made happened. |
|
|
|
Post by GO30 on Aug 28, 2022 9:56:06 GMT 12
Reading a book last evening while charging a pile of lithiums using a very intelligent charger to hear 'POP!'.
Hmm... WTF? A short suss finds a smell of hot, too hot. One of the batteries had gone into meltdown. Wickly hot so thru it outside, still hot this morning. It was only a tiny 3V CR123 but after all the yabba lately and this thread it got me a little edgy
Moral of the story - don't leave lithium things on charge when you're not around...he says as he thinks fuck, the charger is currently running on the boats Lithium, is the insurance paid up?
|
|
|
|
Post by fish on Aug 28, 2022 11:07:42 GMT 12
Reading a book last evening while charging a pile of lithiums using a very intelligent charger to hear 'POP!'. Hmm... WTF? A short suss finds a smell of hot, too hot. One of the batteries had gone into meltdown. Wickly hot so thru it outside, still hot this morning. It was only a tiny 3V CR123 but after all the yabba lately and this thread it got me a little edgy Moral of the story - don't leave lithium things on charge when you're not around...he says as he thinks fuck, the charger is currently running on the boats Lithium, is the insurance paid up? This is blatant trolling GO30. Reading a book? what ever next? that must be a lost art, like navigating with a sextant, the sun and the stars.... What actually popped? was it an overload / over temp failsafe device, or the battery itself? Currently in the middle of re-installing our smart alternator charger on the boat. Was down the list a long way after we installed our new engine. We only have FLA batteries (I'm low tech like that, and can't afford Lithium if I wanted to). The Balmar smart charger has loads of inputs for battery temp and alternator temp, all leading to safety cut outs and alarm states. So if my batteries get too hot, I can have a lights and siren disco in the cockpit. I'll just go with a warning light on the dash I think, given I've got disco lights for engine temp, shaft seal temp, bilge alarm yadda yadda. Many more important things on the basis if the alarm state is triggered everything will shut down. Point is, do these fancy smanshy Lithium systems with built in battery management have temp monitoring, and if they do, do people rely on that or do they still have a battery temp sensor going back to the charge controller? As per previous comments, you can still get FLA's to explode, so I'm not sure the fire risk from Lithium's is substantially different. Accept of course when people have loads more to make a bigger bonfire. (Electric propulsion instead of just house batteries) PS, was it a picture book, or one of those ones with big words and short, simple sentences? |
|
|
|
Post by em on Aug 28, 2022 15:06:48 GMT 12
Reading a book last evening while charging a pile of lithiums using a very intelligent charger to hear 'POP!'. Hmm... WTF? A short suss finds a smell of hot, too hot. One of the batteries had gone into meltdown. Wickly hot so thru it outside, still hot this morning. It was only a tiny 3V CR123 but after all the yabba lately and this thread it got me a little edgy Moral of the story - don't leave lithium things on charge when you're not around...he says as he thinks fuck, the charger is currently running on the boats Lithium, is the insurance paid up? This is blatant trolling GO30. Reading a book? what ever next? that must be a lost art, like navigating with a sextant, the sun and the stars.... What actually popped? was it an overload / over temp failsafe device, or the battery itself? Currently in the middle of re-installing our smart alternator charger on the boat. Was down the list a long way after we installed our new engine. We only have FLA batteries (I'm low tech like that, and can't afford Lithium if I wanted to). The Balmar smart charger has loads of inputs for battery temp and alternator temp, all leading to safety cut outs and alarm states. So if my batteries get too hot, I can have a lights and siren disco in the cockpit. I'll just go with a warning light on the dash I think, given I've got disco lights for engine temp, shaft seal temp, bilge alarm yadda yadda. Many more important things on the basis if the alarm state is triggered everything will shut down. Point is, do these fancy smanshy Lithium systems with built in battery management have temp monitoring, and if they do, do people rely on that or do they still have a battery temp sensor going back to the charge controller? As per previous comments, you can still get FLA's to explode, so I'm not sure the fire risk from Lithium's is substantially different. Accept of course when people have loads more to make a bigger bonfire. (Electric propulsion instead of just house batteries) PS, was it a picture book, or one of those ones with big words and short, simple sentences? Yeah the battery management system has a temp sensor on the ones I have . It would shut the battery down independently of the charger if temp got too high . Lithium phosphate batteries are much safer than the old school lithium’s but don’t be tempted by the cheap Chinese ones . I trialled some cheap ones and they wouldn’t charge in parallel but worked fine on their own , the Cells weren’t exactly equalised so one charged faster than the other . |
|
|
|
Post by GO30 on Aug 28, 2022 17:28:37 GMT 12
Reading a book last evening while charging a pile of lithiums using a very intelligent charger to hear 'POP!'. Hmm... WTF? A short suss finds a smell of hot, too hot. One of the batteries had gone into meltdown. Wickly hot so thru it outside, still hot this morning. It was only a tiny 3V CR123 but after all the yabba lately and this thread it got me a little edgy Moral of the story - don't leave lithium things on charge when you're not around...he says as he thinks fuck, the charger is currently running on the boats Lithium, is the insurance paid up? This is blatant trolling GO30. Reading a book? what ever next? that must be a lost art, like navigating with a sextant, the sun and the stars.... What actually popped? was it an overload / over temp failsafe device, or the battery itself? It was a Panasonic CR..some number, not a biggy solar battery but 3.2V smaller one out of my laser site, ruffly a skinny D size. I thought the charger had popped but this am I went to suss for a fuse and nothing found, the charger seems fine but I haven't charged anything with it since so we'll see. So not really sure what made the noise. The battery is now in the pit which was silly of me as I should have peeled the skin off to see if the black marks, on the side of each end it, had were burn marks. The thing was too hot to hold when I ripped it out of the charger and chucked it outside.
But what may have happened if we weren't right there and heard the pop followed a few minutes later a smell you just know is not right, but I had the battery out of the charger by then? Nothing, something, total lose of the shed??
Yeap, leads can fail but lead also but don't pose the risk lithium do as they don't melt down in a timid damn near selfish way and then stop. Lithium goes for it and keeps going for it for quite a while, over 4 days I saw a week or 3 back. You can use water, foam, oxygen starvation to stop a lead acid, and to come back to the threads original question, what do you use to put out a lithium fire, you can't use any of those 3.
Yeap again good systems do have temp control for charging maximisation and the super good systems also have safety reactions around temp like early cut outs prior to a batteries ability to go rouge. But even those systems can't stop a battery going uber evil if its management system fails and yet again back to the original question, what are your plans to quell a fire should that happen?
We have seen aircraft, cars, ships and boats totally destroyed by lithium and why? They all do share something in common, none of those aircraft, cars, ships and boats and apparently 1 house a week had fire systems capable of dealing with a lithium battery meltdown.
I see you have answered the original question, you plan to put your entire faith in the marketing that says the technology is perfect and just hope it never fails. Boeing did exactly that for a while...until one day.....
Black Cherry Blues by James Lee Burke. Not a super stunner but enuff there to keep you coming back. Also coincidently I pulled my Sextant out last weekend just to check I hadn't left a battery in it, I hadn't. I must take it for a hoon and see if I can dredge out of the grey matter to make it work goodly.....I will not be holding my breath but do hope to a gobsmacked.
|
|
|
|
Post by em on Aug 29, 2022 10:12:14 GMT 12
I see you have answered the original question, you plan to put your entire faith in the marketing that says the technology is perfect and just hope it never fails. Boeing did exactly that for a while...until one day Well the battery shed is away from the house as recommend by the installer but it will take the panels with it if it ever went up . As for the boat having lithium phosphate battery , that is probably as risky as going for a fly in a light plane where you also put utmost faith in technology ….and a metric shit ton safer than going for a motorcycle ride . if you are looking to install lithium batteries this Australian test is very comprehensive and a great benchmark for choosing a brand . it’s interesting to note that none of the batteries had heat issues after 100s and in some cases 1000s of cycles over several years of testing . Though some had BMS issues . batterytestcentre.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/Battlab-Report-12-Final.pdf |
|
|
|
Post by GO30 on Sept 6, 2022 16:31:53 GMT 12
Interesting update.
On sussing why that battery went POP it appears someone in a shop got out the item and had a suss for whatever reason. It looks like 2 may have been out for some reason. When I asked if they had heard of any strange shit going on and why they said yeap. The day before another punter had been in and pointed out in the item he got, which was the same as mine, one of the batteries was a rechargeable but the other wasn't. So we suspect I brought one of the items and it looks like it could have been the other miss-matched set of batteries. I'm going for a dive tomorrow to see if I can find them, oh joy but I gotta know.
If I did have a miss-matched then that means I was charging a non-rechargeable battery and it's gone POP.
On sussing the charger there is something going on with it that has me thinking "Hmm... I think I may have cooked it'.
|
|
|
|
Post by fish on Sept 13, 2022 21:13:21 GMT 12
At least eight people have been killed and 11 injured in a fire that started at an electric scooter showroom in India, police said, in what is the deadliest such incident involving electric vehicles in the country. The fire broke out late on Monday in a hotel basement housing a showroom with some two dozen electric scooters in the southern city of Secunderabad, according to police. They added that it had been brought under control and an investigation had been launched. A spate of electric scooter fires this year has alarmed the government, which is keen to promote the use of the two-wheelers in its fight against pollution. Early investigations have identified faulty battery cells and battery modules among the main causes. Most of those killed in the latest fire were occupants of the hotel, which was engulfed by smoke. Police and firefighters used cranes and other equipment to rescue stranded hotel guests from the upper floors of the four-storey building as smoke billowed out of its windows, media images showed. “Those staying on the first and second floors were overpowered by smoke and the maximum casualties are from those floors,” C V Anand, the police chief of the neighbouring city of Hyderabad, told Reuters partner ANI. www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/9/13/fire-at-e-scooter-showroom-in-india-kills-eight |
|
|
|
Post by GO30 on Sept 14, 2022 10:09:36 GMT 12
The risk is real very real as is borne out by real life events and a shit load of them. Surely that strongly suggests, if not shouts from the roof top, if you choose to only listen to the marketing that these things are 100% safe then you and yours are at an elevated risk of becoming crispy critters. No I have yet to do anything but I am on the trail of a potential goodie. Another update - I went into the pit (yucky plus but I was already covered in calf everything as I just brought home 10 wee Angus ladies, the stuff that comes out of them is..lets not go there  ) yesterday and found the 2 batteries subject to the POP, yeap one was a rechargeable, the other wasn't. They look so similar it's not at all easy to see that difference. On a deeper suss I'm in very much 2 minds if the charger is not working at 100% so it's off to the bin...after I dissect it, as I do. It's interesting to see what's inside lots of things. |
|
) yesterday and found the 2 batteries subject to the POP, yeap one was a rechargeable, the other wasn't. They look so similar it's not at all easy to see that difference. On a deeper suss I'm in very much 2 minds if the charger is not working at 100% so it's off to the bin...after I dissect it, as I do. It's interesting to see what's inside lots of things.