|
Post by fish on Sept 14, 2022 10:21:25 GMT 12
Question though, would you store large quantities of petrol in the basement of a hotel?
I'm not saying Lithium is great, but if it were given the same consideration as other combustible products, like the main alternative petrol, it might make it a tad safer - with regards to storage locations, charging operations etc.
|
|
|
Post by GO30 on Sept 14, 2022 17:51:41 GMT 12
Me not personally and I am building a DG store outside up in rural as we do have a lot of fuels assorted all sitting a few meters from my bed.
Petrol is far better known, can't just suddenly combust without external inputs and there are many systems available to mitigate leaks, fires and so on, so I'm not that sure the 2 are an apples for apples.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2022 18:59:05 GMT 12
Question though, would you store large quantities of petrol in the basement of a hotel? I'm not saying Lithium is great, but if it were given the same consideration as other combustible products, like the main alternative petrol, it might make it a tad safer - with regards to storage locations, charging operations etc. Many hotelsBasements house cars,skyshitty carpark,how many cars??10s of 1000s petrol tankers roaming the worlds rds,when was the last one to catch fire?? Only Tanker fire I can think of was at Manukau in the 1990s caudsed by a dumb arse car driver.Even then it didnt explode.Empty is more of a risk than full.
|
|
|
Post by fish on Sept 14, 2022 19:40:18 GMT 12
I think the issue is one of perception. Most people know that petrol is flamable. There are known rules like not smoking in gas stations. There are specific rules about its storage. Things like what type of container you can put it in. How much you can store in certain types of locations etc. There are rules about where tankers can drive, or dangerous goods vehicles, like not in long road tunnels (Waterview for an example). Any fiery car crash is 'fiery' because of the petrol. My mates know not to light a bonfire with petrol. I wont tell you how they learnt that lesson, lets just say the blast blew the fire out, and the burns only took about 4 weeks to heal...
But people think batteries are safe. No one has had a AA explode (accept GO30). Batteries are stored in kitchen draws all the time without starting fires. Every device you can think of has a battery in it now. Phones, laptops, go-pros, wearable tech. The list is endless. So peoples perception of bigger batteries is that they are as safe as your AA.
The point is these big lithium batteries are a source of energy. They aren't AA's. They are far closer to petrol in energy density and energy volume. People currently think big lithium batteries are perfectly safe. They are not. GO30 is pushing that point, but then he does have a unique habit of wrecking things (no disrespect intended, you did employ a guy who's sole job was to see if he could break stuff).
There is clearly a link between quality and safety, along with the already well known fact that lithium bats need their own dedicated battery management system. Something that people like Enertec use as a basic marketing ploy to publicize the fact their batteries wont spontaneously combust (if the BMS works that is).
An extension of this point is how durable lithium batteries are. We got a battery powered weed eater (missus and starting 2-strokes equals stress for me). I dropped the damn battery, wont go, had to spend $200 on another one. I was pissed off. The thing lacks basic durability. I didn't know I had to treat the new weed eater like a 3 month old baby, FFS.
|
|
|
Post by em on Sept 14, 2022 20:48:29 GMT 12
Fucken hell ! Indias not exactly a shining example of safe practice for anything ! Do your research and don’t buy cheap shit.
and don’t keep your big batteries in the house . Any offgrid installer with half a brain will only install a system if the batteries are in a shed well away from the dwelling , and that’s for any batteries not just lithium and a well ventilated shed as well .
“An extension of this point is how durable lithium batteries are”
have a look at the link to the Australian battery testing mob I posted upthread . They put some better quality batts through a few thousand cycles with no fires though some BMS did shit themselves . The takeaway is good Chinese cells are reliable but a lot of Chinese BMS are not so choose a battery accordingly .
|
|
|
Post by fish on Sept 14, 2022 20:58:16 GMT 12
Fucken hell ! Indias not exactly a shining example of safe practice for anything ! What gives you that idea? Bhopal disaster, chemical leak in 1984 in the city of Bhopal, Madhya Pradesh state, India. At the time, it was called the worst industrial accident in history. On December 3, 1984, about 45 tons of the dangerous gas methyl isocyanate escaped from an insecticide plant that was owned by the Indian subsidiary of the American firm Union Carbide Corporation. The gas drifted over the densely populated neighbourhoods around the plant, killing thousands of people immediately and creating a panic as tens of thousands of others attempted to flee Bhopal. The final death toll was estimated to be between 15,000 and 20,000. Some half a million survivors suffered respiratory problems, eye irritation or blindness, and other maladies resulting from exposure to the toxic gas; many were awarded compensation of a few hundred dollars. Investigations later established that substandard operating and safety procedures at the understaffed plant had led to the catastrophe. In 1998 the former factory site was turned over to the state of Madhya Pradesh.
|
|
|
Post by GO30 on Sept 15, 2022 20:23:54 GMT 12
The point is these big lithium batteries are a source of energy. They aren't AA's. They are far closer to petrol in energy density and energy volume. People currently think big lithium batteries are perfectly safe. They are not. GO30 is pushing that point, but then he does have a unique habit of wrecking things (no disrespect intended, you did employ a guy who's sole job was to see if he could break stuff). Well that's an arse. Wrote response, posted and all that came up was multiple Fishs, a damn school of the buggers each quoting the other. One of them 'special schools' maybe
To be pedantic it was a CR not AA and I did use it incorrectly and in one of the more dangerous ways. It was also not a Lithium, the other one with it was and even though it didn't go POP and looked fine it's been binned just in case. But that sort of proves the point while all is fine 99% of the time shit can and certainly does happen. That CR cock up started a week before I brought my item which contained the batteries. It also did not help the 2 batteries looked the same with a cursory glance.
While I'm not pushing lithium are dangerous, which they sure are and we rely on thr management system to keep the power tamed, a small % will fail. There is a strong track record of failures and across the board i.e not just in cars or just in X nor Y.
I have a big lithium in the GO30 and I do not expect it to fail...but I know it could.
What I'm asking is should that happen how do I stop it, what plans do you lot have should one of your lithiums go rouge?
Mr Destructo was fun but costly That's OK though as you learn huge good stuff from failures, or you try too. I got a whole new power pack for the smaller bed this week. That goes in with a high speed camera to watch the action in slow mo. To date the best slow mo we get is good but still a little fast to see individual fibre fails or the cracks starting to form sort of thing over anything but a very small area. The new camera will expand that area so we can see more. I've also scored a huge test bed with awesome throw which will be ideal for some ropes. The logistics of moving it are an arse but we'll get there.
|
|
|
Post by em on Sept 15, 2022 20:54:16 GMT 12
The point is these big lithium batteries are a source of energy. They aren't AA's. They are far closer to petrol in energy density and energy volume. People currently think big lithium batteries are perfectly safe. They are not. GO30 is pushing that point, but then he does have a unique habit of wrecking things (no disrespect intended, you did employ a guy who's sole job was to see if he could break stuff). Well that's an arse. Wrote response, posted and all that came up was multiple Fishs, a damn school of the buggers each quoting the other. One of them 'special schools' maybe
To be pedantic it was a CR not AA and I did use it incorrectly and in one of the more dangerous ways. It was also not a Lithium, the other one with it was and even though it didn't go POP and looked fine it's been binned just in case. But that sort of proves the point while all is fine 99% of the time shit can and certainly does happen. That CR cock up started a week before I brought my item which contained the batteries. It also did not help the 2 batteries looked the same with a cursory glance.
While I'm not pushing lithium are dangerous, which they sure are and we rely on thr management system to keep the power tamed, a small % will fail. There is a strong track record of failures and across the board i.e not just in cars or just in X nor Y.
I have a big lithium in the GO30 and I do not expect it to fail...but I know it could.
What I'm asking is should that happen how do I stop it, what plans do you lot have should one of your lithiums go rouge?
Mr Destructo was fun but costly That's OK though as you learn huge good stuff from failures, or you try too. I got a whole new power pack for the smaller bed this week. That goes in with a high speed camera to watch the action in slow mo. To date the best slow mo we get is good but still a little fast to see individual fibre fails or the cracks starting to form sort of thing over anything but a very small area. The new camera will expand that area so we can see more. I've also scored a huge test bed with awesome throw which will be ideal for some ropes. The logistics of moving it are an arse but we'll get there. I highly recommend you go to sailing anarchy and read this thread . It’s full of every scenario and opinion under the sun about lithium on boats and sorry it’s a monster thread , coupla weeks of reading in there . forums.sailinganarchy.com/threads/youre-not-qualified-to-have-lithium-batteries.235918/
|
|
|
Post by fish on Sept 15, 2022 21:10:37 GMT 12
My understanding of what to do if lithium starts smoking is exactly the same as the safety procedures in the sticking bay at the works if a beast starts to get up. RUN LIKE FUCK.
No jokes. If what you are saying is correct, there is no conventional way of containing a lithium fire, so your best course of action is to get out of the way. I'd shut off power if you can, but otherwise evacuate the area, exit the building, get off the boat etc. Same as when I was in the Works. The formal procedure, written in the safety manual, and explained to anyone entering the slaughter floor was, if a beast gets up, run like fuck. We also always asked visitors, brokers and the like if they fainted at the sight of blood, and made a quick mental assessment if we thought we could carry or drag them out of the way, if they did faint.
Usually, if they've been partially stunned, they are fairly dopey when they get up so is not a problem. But one day the stun box guy got mixed up and pushed the 'open' button instead of the 'stun' button. This bull came out like he was in a friggin rodeo. I was in the lunch room (of course) and the fire escapes flung open from the slaughter floor and all these guys came running out. Being rural Taranaki several ran to their utes in the carpark to get their guns... One of the funny things were we were 'hot boning' so the sides went straight form the slaughter floor into the packing room. No-one in the packing room knew what was going on, the sides just stopped coming through, and were just standing around waiting. A mild mannered supervisor went to open the door to the slaughter floor just as the bull was charging down that end. The guy got a hell of a fright and shut the door faster than anyone had ever seen (it was a 4 m high 3 m wide half foot think freezer panel door...) Some complete nutter ending up leaping off a legging stand with a captive bolt gun and finishing the beast off, but people reckon the beast was knackered by then and didn't put up much of a fight.
In a similar but unrelated incident, my department and office was way down the back of the plant past the loading docks and halfway to the effluent ponds. It was like a secret special projects area (I was in charge of perfecting portion controlled steak, and halal bacon). I got a random but urgent phone call one day to not come outside at all, under any circumstances. A steer had got out of the yards (on the far side of the plant) and was round my side. That wasn't particularly dangerous in itself. The main risk was the Plant Manager was standing on a loading doc with his .308 trying to get the steer... His eyesight wasn't that great and the office staff were worried...
|
|