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Post by Fogg on Mar 31, 2023 10:15:26 GMT 12
Reasons to leave NZ to give your children a better future +1 Reasons to stay in nuzlid - it's still one of the best places to raise kids. Based on what, exactly? How are you measuring that with poor / worsening figures for: 1. Education standards 2. Child poverty 3. Child abuse 3. Youth mental health & suicide We used to be high on the various world league tables across these measure but now we are average at best and falling.
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Post by Fogg on Mar 31, 2023 10:19:13 GMT 12
+ I would have added racism but I didn’t want to stir that pot..
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Post by muzled on Mar 31, 2023 11:26:31 GMT 12
Reasons to stay in nuzlid - it's still one of the best places to raise kids. Based on what, exactly? How are you measuring that with poor / worsening figures for: 1. Education standards 2. Child poverty 3. Child abuse 3. Youth mental health & suicide We used to be high on the various world league tables across these measure but now we are average at best and falling. I'm basing it solely on my situation and how I want my kids to be raised and what opportunities I can give them. I could list those things but they're prob quite similar opportunities to what a lot of kids whose parents are on this forum. Mostly outdoor stuff though. I'm quite confident my kids will look back at their upbringing when they're older and they'll realise what a dream they lived. Not that we're going heliskiing or have a 50ft yacht but they've got it pretty good. The skools they go to are awesome, they've walked or ridden to skool since they were about 7. We had parent teacher interviews last night and apart from the English teacher (who was ok) they were all awesome, the sort of people you want teaching your kids, they were fully engaged and could tell us all about both our kids. (one primary, one high skool) Could I raise them in a similar way in another country? Yes probably, but I think of other countries I'd like to live in myself and Spain is prob the only one that appeals. And yes they'd have another world of opportunities if we did that (I don't even know if we could move to Europe as have no ancestry visas) So even though all the things you list are correct, I still think it's one of the best places to raise kids.
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Post by muzled on Mar 31, 2023 11:38:31 GMT 12
Reasons to stay in nuzlid - it's still one of the best places to raise kids. Based on what, exactly? How are you measuring that with poor / worsening figures for: 1. Education standards 2. Child poverty 3. Child abuse 3. Youth mental health & suicide We used to be high on the various world league tables across these measure but now we are average at best and falling. Where would you rather raise your kids Fogg? You're English yeah? That gives you the option of Europe which is something most of us kiwi's don't have. I had two years in London and was gutted I had to leave when I did, I loved every minute of my time there, but there is no way I'd raise my kids in England if someone gave me the option to be here or there.
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Post by Fogg on Mar 31, 2023 12:45:48 GMT 12
I admit I’m torn.
Yes I have options for Europe due to UK & NZ passports.
We also have options for India given my wife, which gives both the kids and me option to get Indian citizenship too.
I don’t have a simple option eg a single country that would be a better place all around than NZ. But we’re gravitating towards a rotating model that involves spending a few months in each of NZ, UK and Europe (probably Spain) avoiding the winter most of the time.
It’s more a drive away from NZ that I’m feeling rather than a strong pull to another country. Although the rich diversity of history and culture of Europe is very appealing to help create broad-minded little citizens of the world. Rather than just All Blacks fans and surfers.
Every day I try turning on the radio in the car and sometimes I can last a while segment but usually I can’t stand more than a few words before I switch off (literally).
I agree the teachers are fab and well-intentioned. But sonething is going wrong with education. And it’s not the people who I don’t like. It’s the way of thinking that seems to be going off the rails. And the inability to think & speak freely for fear of becoming an outcast. Just look at that rally at the weekend, for example.
Anyway, time to go sailing…
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Post by Fogg on Mar 31, 2023 14:01:33 GMT 12
Based on what, exactly? How are you measuring that with poor / worsening figures for: 1. Education standards 2. Child poverty 3. Child abuse 3. Youth mental health & suicide We used to be high on the various world league tables across these measure but now we are average at best and falling. I'm basing it solely on my situation and how I want my kids to be raised and what opportunities I can give them. I could list those things but they're prob quite similar opportunities to what a lot of kids whose parents are on this forum. Mostly outdoor stuff though. I'm quite confident my kids will look back at their upbringing when they're older and they'll realise what a dream they lived. Not that we're going heliskiing or have a 50ft yacht but they've got it pretty good. The skools they go to are awesome, they've walked or ridden to skool since they were about 7. We had parent teacher interviews last night and apart from the English teacher (who was ok) they were all awesome, the sort of people you want teaching your kids, they were fully engaged and could tell us all about both our kids. (one primary, one high skool) Could I raise them in a similar way in another country? Yes probably, but I think of other countries I'd like to live in myself and Spain is prob the only one that appeals. And yes they'd have another world of opportunities if we did that (I don't even know if we could move to Europe as have no ancestry visas) So even though all the things you list are correct, I still think it's one of the best places to raise kids. To be fair, if that’s how you honestly feel about things then that’s great and you should embrace it and enjoy it. And not be distracted by restless souls like me. I only wish I felt the same degree of contentment as you. I envy you in that regard.
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Post by muzled on Mar 31, 2023 14:06:36 GMT 12
We also have options for India given my wife, which gives both the kids and me option to get Indian citizenship too. - Oooh, go live there for a while, I had two months travelling there years ago and loved it, so much fun.I don’t have a simple option eg a single country that would be a better place all around than NZ. But we’re gravitating towards a rotating model that involves spending a few months in each of NZ, UK and Europe (probably Spain) avoiding the winter most of the time. - That sounds great but the downside is skooling for the kids?Every day I try turning on the radio in the car and sometimes I can last a while segment but usually I can’t stand more than a few words before I switch off (literally). - I read a few non msm websites from both left and right and if the news comes on in the car it gets turned off before a word is spoken.I agree the teachers are fab and well-intentioned. But sonething is going wrong with education. And it’s not the people who I don’t like. It’s the way of thinking that seems to be going off the rails. And the inability to think & speak freely for fear of becoming an outcast. Just look at that rally at the weekend, for example. - I think that fiasco in the weekend is going to be one of the best things that has happened to our smug hermit kingdom in years. It set the 'forever children crybaby' trans mob back 20 years and ripped the scab off the spiteful bullies that they are.Anyway, time to go sailing… Can I use your boat while you're galivanting around various other countries???
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Post by GO30 on Mar 31, 2023 15:37:56 GMT 12
I spend a year at school on England, the Howard of Effingham High school in Leatherhead. I wasn't a school liker in NZ and even less so in the UK due to things like a tie and things a little too la de do da for a kiwi lad. But I torn the UK school apart in sports, bog washing, how to use the chemistry Dept to blow shit up and so on. The schools bully boys very quickly learned 1 Kiwi was equal to 3 of them....luckily for a wee Aussie dude who they were hammering until I arrived. The experience was OK as I knew I could play up and get away with it. But compared to NZ schools it was far less (to non-existant) get off your bum and do stuff schooling. Also after school there was far less to do so that caused a few issues as well, ideal hands can play up and they did. In winter it was worse, we were in Surrey so winter wasn't really that bad.
But the experience was good so when my kids hit 15 we sent them away to school for a similar experience. One went to the Uni of Stockholm, the other to Germany.
A few years later I got to live in the UK for a long while. We, me and 3 mates, went all over and spend 6 months cruising the EU in a Bedford van, the one with the suicide doors. Living on fuck all so used to spend the nights in corn fields having corn for dinner, breakfast and lunch. Again the experience was a good one to have.
Like Fogg lately I've also been wondering if my kids should stay on NZ or fuck off due to all the stupidity going on. One is a traveller anyway, she came home with me last week after 9 months this time. Chatting last night about this and she thinks I'm nuts in suggesting they settle down elsewhere. She reckons NZ has freedoms most other places don't and we also have very easy access to cool shit like sailing, skiing, walking and a huge range of things.
After doing Central America where there is fun all over the show, and often cheap fun but with cautions like their ability to go evil fast which leads to guns being used, I came home disillusioned with bits of NZ again, I do most trips away. But when taken as a whole D2 is right, we can do a lot of shit here you can't elsewhere. Sure we're trying hard to fuck all that but the current rate of muppetry is unsustainable so I see change coming and it can only change to less muppetry.
Personally for me and the Wa we can ensconce ourselves in rural quite happily so for us any offshores are trips, we have no desire to move even though we could quite easily. If we were to move no way would it be to the EU, the place is tired and we see it as good for old people. Interestingly D1, 27yo, agreed with me on that, she also said everywhere she went there were lots of older people, most just sitting around talking about days now gone. I'd move to Asia and now Nicaragua would be high on the list, far more vibrant and go ahead IMO.
But as much as I try I really can't think of a place I've rather be full time. As for my kids, they seem quite happy to be here and have no plans to move on any long term basis...even if I suspect D1 will bugger off for another biggie soon. But both, and their partners, have expressed a desire to get out of the city and into somehting more rurally relaxed. One is like me and expects cities to get increasingly yucky place to live due to rampant muppets and other dickheadery.
It's a interesting dilemma Mr Fogg has on his hands. I can see where he's is coming from and why. I watch with interest as he works it through to wherever it leads.
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Post by harrytom on Apr 1, 2023 4:47:45 GMT 12
Ok .I have 2 boys and as Go30 knows.Im not the most educated person around.School was for eating lunch. Now my 2 went to ardmore primary for 2 yrs but the education wasnt there or the boys werent interested? but constantly told they will catch up when ready. Yep they will so changed schools. Papakura normal where 1 became dux and 2 became runner up. Off the Rosehill secondary school with its pupil problems ,low social economic values etc. But they exceeded.Finally finished 2018/2019
Number 1 dux runner up same for number 2,both recieved 10k scholarships.
Number 1 just finished his Masters in electrical engineering.Bulding/programming computor thngs and has landed a 6 months contract with a major company in BOP more than my annual wage.
Number 2 is in to his 3rd yr medical at AK and doing very well by all accounts.
So is it the education system dumbing children down so all are equal?
Or did my 2 realise they wanted 2 exceed and not be classed as low social ecomomics group?
No we as parents didnt push them but gave guidence and support
Any Child can excel if they want,just need to choose their peer group.
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Post by Fogg on Apr 1, 2023 10:12:37 GMT 12
I’m probably being quite fussy by constantly bringing an international perspective to things. Partly because of my background - having lived and worked in several countries before NZ - and partly because the world is obviously increasingly inter-connected.
And that’s where the NZ system all goes wrong for me. Here is a real and practical example…
Last year the UK Govt announced a new program to attract young talent to kick-start the economy after Covid. Previously, a new graduate could get a visa to live in UK if they had a confirmed job offer. But under the new rules a new graduate can now get a 2 year visa to live in the UK and find a job. At which point the temporary visa gets renewed / extended so they can stay there.
The only criteria is that they must have graduated from a top 100 university in the world. And not one NZ university makes the list. I think Auckland is the highest at about 180.
So what that tells me is that even if your child excels in NZ and works their hardest to make it all the way through the education system and get a 1st class honours degree from the best university in NZ - then they will be disappointed to find they do not have all the wonderful opportunities they were promised - for example the door would be closed to them qualifying for the UK program. Whereas their Australian counterparts would get in. And that’s just one example.
See my dilemma?
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Post by sloopjohnb on Apr 1, 2023 10:39:10 GMT 12
We dumb down everything so more can past in NZ but not in the big wide world......but ok as te moari is only spoken small bunch of ........ people.
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Post by armchairadmiral on Apr 1, 2023 11:50:43 GMT 12
Ok .I have 2 boys and as Go30 knows.Im not the most educated person around.School was for eating lunch. Now my 2 went to ardmore primary for 2 yrs but the education wasnt there or the boys werent interested? but constantly told they will catch up when ready. Yep they will so changed schools. Papakura normal where 1 became dux and 2 became runner up. Off the Rosehill secondary school with its pupil problems ,low social economic values etc. But they exceeded.Finally finished 2018/2019 Number 1 dux runner up same for number 2,both recieved 10k scholarships. Number 1 just finished his Masters in electrical engineering.Bulding/programming computor thngs and has landed a 6 months contract with a major company in BOP more than my annual wage. Number 2 is in to his 3rd yr medical at AK and doing very well by all accounts. So is it the education system dumbing children down so all are equal? Or did my 2 realise they wanted 2 exceed and not be classed as low social ecomomics group? No we as parents didnt push them but gave guidence and support Any Child can excel if they want,just need to choose their peer group. Grandy ran foul of 'education 'system ( read compliance) at age 14. Some trivial compliance matter that the principal decided to blow up so she quit on the spot and did Te Kura (correspondence) No maori bs, no bullying, just study. She got a job & put herself through. Just finishing 2 degrees this year and working full time as well. Don't tell me it can't be done. But if you get captured by the system you're likely to be dumbed down. Maori bs is rife at Uni. She's doing law and maori only need 15% less to pass. Don't get a maori lawyer !!!
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Post by GO30 on Apr 1, 2023 12:19:24 GMT 12
I’m probably being quite fussy by constantly bringing an international perspective to things. Partly because of my background - having lived and worked in several countries before NZ - and partly because the world is obviously increasingly inter-connected. And that’s where the NZ system all goes wrong for me. Here is a real and practical example… Last year the UK Govt announced a new program to attract young talent to kick-start the economy after Covid. Previously, a new graduate could get a visa to live in UK if they had a confirmed job offer. But under the new rules a new graduate can now get a 2 year visa to live in the UK and find a job. At which point the temporary visa gets renewed / extended so they can stay there. The only criteria is that they must have graduated from a top 100 university in the world. And not one NZ university makes the list. I think Auckland is the highest at about 180. So what that tells me is that even if your child excels in NZ and works their hardest to make it all the way through the education system and get a 1st class honours degree from the best university in NZ - then they will be disappointed to find they do not have all the wonderful opportunities they were promised - for example the door would be closed to them qualifying for the UK program. Whereas their Australian counterparts would get in. And that’s just one example. See my dilemma? Your child can do the UK due to you anyway so that's not a biggie. Also you do seem to have an plan as where your kids will go. We had that as well, until they grew up and went their own way, just as their parents did.
Plus the majority of my group who are the 'most comfortable' as in finances, toys in the shed/marina, dwelling/s, travelled extensively and generally more stable in their existences, none went to Uni, a couple only did 1 year of 5th form. Not to say Uni isn't good but it certainly doesn't ensure a good life.
I was that good at school they wanted me to do the 5th form twice, I then bailed 3 weeks into 6th form, now I employ Uni graduates doing stuff totally unrelated to their degrees.
As Harrytom pointed out kids can do well in the NZ system if they want too, the majority do. Sadly all we see on MSM are the slackers and soon to be losers.
Chatting the other night with my kids around this and both said the best thing we did as parents was to is always encourage and support them even though at times we weren't fans of some of the things they were up too. They also said the opportunity to do some schooling offshore was big for them and opened their eyes and minds to far more than their mates who didn't have that opportunity.
At times I think we as parents can over think things. Also these days kids seem to know a shit load more than we did at the same age so they are more capable, generally speaking, in making better informed decisions themselves.
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Post by harrytom on Apr 1, 2023 13:20:15 GMT 12
I should of pointed out,that I was away 3 nights per week and wife worked fulltime,so the boys had to get breakfast and make their own way to and from school.
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Post by Fogg on Apr 1, 2023 14:05:02 GMT 12
I’m probably being quite fussy by constantly bringing an international perspective to things. Partly because of my background - having lived and worked in several countries before NZ - and partly because the world is obviously increasingly inter-connected. And that’s where the NZ system all goes wrong for me. Here is a real and practical example… Last year the UK Govt announced a new program to attract young talent to kick-start the economy after Covid. Previously, a new graduate could get a visa to live in UK if they had a confirmed job offer. But under the new rules a new graduate can now get a 2 year visa to live in the UK and find a job. At which point the temporary visa gets renewed / extended so they can stay there. The only criteria is that they must have graduated from a top 100 university in the world. And not one NZ university makes the list. I think Auckland is the highest at about 180. So what that tells me is that even if your child excels in NZ and works their hardest to make it all the way through the education system and get a 1st class honours degree from the best university in NZ - then they will be disappointed to find they do not have all the wonderful opportunities they were promised - for example the door would be closed to them qualifying for the UK program. Whereas their Australian counterparts would get in. And that’s just one example. See my dilemma? Your child can do the UK due to you anyway so that's not a biggie. Also you do seem to have an plan as where your kids will go. We had that as well, until they grew up and went their own way, just as their parents did.
Plus the majority of my group who are the 'most comfortable' as in finances, toys in the shed/marina, dwelling/s, travelled extensively and generally more stable in their existences, none went to Uni, a couple only did 1 year of 5th form. Not to say Uni isn't good but it certainly doesn't ensure a good life.
I was that good at school they wanted me to do the 5th form twice, I then bailed 3 weeks into 6th form, now I employ Uni graduates doing stuff totally unrelated to their degrees.
As Harrytom pointed out kids can do well in the NZ system if they want too, the majority do. Sadly all we see on MSM are the slackers and soon to be losers.
Chatting the other night with my kids around this and both said the best thing we did as parents was to is always encourage and support them even though at times we weren't fans of some of the things they were up too. They also said the opportunity to do some schooling offshore was big for them and opened their eyes and minds to far more than their mates who didn't have that opportunity.
At times I think we as parents can over think things. Also these days kids seem to know a shit load more than we did at the same age so they are more capable, generally speaking, in making better informed decisions themselves.
Both my boys are obviously smarter than me - thank god! Yes they can get into the UK because of their parentage but that’s missing the point - which is they will still be receiving a second-rate education here. And If it wasn’t for me the fact they come from NZ could prevent them getting in because of that. Close friends relocated from NZ to UK 18 months ago and their 12yr old daughter was an absolute star performer at (private) school here in NZ. Since joining a similar school in the UK she is average at best and struggling compared to many of her peers. And those are the same people she will be competing with to get into Uni. And also for a job in a few years time. It’s a sad reality and we might not like it but it’s a hard pill to swallow to knowingly let you children get a second-rate education by staying in NZ and denying them potentially better opportunities by not moving.
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