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Post by armchairadmiral on May 12, 2023 15:23:49 GMT 12
I hear that that august body TAIC is on about boat licensing in response to the investigation of 3 drowning on the Manukau bar. The water safety guy on radio said we have to do something to save the 94 who came to grief this season. Well licensing can't won't do it. Simply and hard heartedly you won't legislate against morons / stupidity. Like everything else this p.c. /woke mentality induces a feel good ,virtue signal. Raises $$ to pay bureaucrats, creates enforcement and is unnecessary for 99%. And for some accidents happen regardless . We have to fight this - another intrusion into our freedoms by this incompetent bunch of numpties
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Post by ComfortZone on May 12, 2023 15:28:55 GMT 12
I hear that that august body TAIC is on about boat licensing in response to the investigation of 3 drowning on the Manukau bar. The water safety guy on radio said we have to do something to save the 94 who came to grief this season. Well licensing can't won't do it. Simply and hard heartedly you won't legislate against morons / stupidity. Like everything else this p.c. /woke mentality induces a feel good ,virtue signal. Raises $$ to pay bureaucrats, creates enforcement and is unnecessary for 99%. And for some accidents happen regardless . We have to fight this - another intrusion into our freedoms by this incompetent bunch of numpties 94 who came to grief, I bet that is water based fatalities of all types, no just boating. So is their going to be license to swim, surf, snorkel etc.... |
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Post by harrytom on May 12, 2023 17:09:49 GMT 12
Start with a coastguards day skipper course as compulsory or any other equilent programme.
At the moment I can buy any size vessel with no knowledge,ever seen a dealer/broker say "heres a pamphlet of simple rules"
You cant stop stupidity,going to go out they will go out.
Why is it always power vessel invovled,rarely a yacht?
Took wife north one Christmas,not the best weather in a 25ft but wind se 20/25 kawau to tutukaka,nice running conditions,must admit did have a couple of wave shrinkers once in side tuts.Think that was the worst part the entrance. She wasnt too happy but settled down when a pod of dolphins came over.
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Post by Cantab on May 12, 2023 17:21:20 GMT 12
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Post by fish on May 12, 2023 21:50:06 GMT 12
This article is very interesting on a number of fronts. TAIC is pushing the Ministry of Transport to act. MoT says there is no evidence licensing will make any difference. Describe it as a very blunt instrument for a safety initiative. Further, MoT says after 20 yrs of boating education, death rates haven't changed. Now, you have to remember that the TAIC is the organisation that is going to take 18 months to work out what went wrong when the Boston Whaler tee-boned the Piahia Ferry. They are not smart guys. On that, Maritime NZ and the Police are investigating the same incident. So it would appear TAIC are desperate for relevance. For themselves. Note, they are also calling for boat design standards. But they have given no examples at all of any issues with boat design. Not even any that have contributed to death. All they could say about the bar crossing tragedy was that the guys forgot to take their lunch. So they were "likely" tired. They also said the skipper took the more difficult channel. The same skipper that had crossed the bar 100 times and been boating for 20 years. You couldn't find a training instructor with that much experience. Interestingly, TAIC have missed the obvious issue and solution. All the guys had been boozing. I have no problem with that, but it affects judgement and survival time in the water. Given the evidence, I would argue it is far more logical to propose drinking limits / alcohol bans on skippers. There is clear evidence drinking on water is bad. But that would just be a law change. No empire to manage the requirements. Boat design standards would cost a shit tonne if NZ went for their own. And a whole licensing, training and testing industry is a bureaucrats wet dream. Just banning drinking? too easy. TAIC have presented a non-arguement. MoT have said 'whatever'. I would hope (HOPE) that post October elections we get a government that completely ditches these nonsense tax payer funded organisations. Just shuts them down. What happens to the economy and our society if TAIC didn't exist? What do they do that Maritime NZ or CAA, or the Police or Coroner don't already do? |
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Post by GO30 on May 13, 2023 12:27:48 GMT 12
Heard some chatter yesterday about bring in licencing. Some were valid but many in the range encompassed by the term 'loony tunes'.
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Post by em on May 13, 2023 12:59:31 GMT 12
This article is very interesting on a number of fronts. TAIC is pushing the Ministry of Transport to act. MoT says there is no evidence licensing will make any difference. Describe it as a very blunt instrument for a safety initiative. Further, MoT says after 20 yrs of boating education, death rates haven't changed. Now, you have to remember that the TAIC is the organisation that is going to take 18 months to work out what went wrong when the Boston Whaler tee-boned the Piahia Ferry. They are not smart guys. On that, Maritime NZ and the Police are investigating the same incident. So it would appear TAIC are desperate for relevance. For themselves. Note, they are also calling for boat design standards. But they have given no examples at all of any issues with boat design. Not even any that have contributed to death. All they could say about the bar crossing tragedy was that the guys forgot to take their lunch. So they were "likely" tired. They also said the skipper took the more difficult channel. The same skipper that had crossed the bar 100 times and been boating for 20 years. You couldn't find a training instructor with that much experience. Interestingly, TAIC have missed the obvious issue and solution. All the guys had been boozing. I have no problem with that, but it affects judgement and survival time in the water. Given the evidence, I would argue it is far more logical to propose drinking limits / alcohol bans on skippers. There is clear evidence drinking on water is bad. But that would just be a law change. No empire to manage the requirements. Boat design standards would cost a shit tonne if NZ went for their own. And a whole licensing, training and testing industry is a bureaucrats wet dream. Just banning drinking? too easy. TAIC have presented a non-arguement. MoT have said 'whatever'. I would hope (HOPE) that post October elections we get a government that completely ditches these nonsense tax payer funded organisations. Just shuts them down. What happens to the economy and our society if TAIC didn't exist? What do they do that Maritime NZ or CAA, or the Police or Coroner don't already do? I still think insurance is the best way to deal with most of the issues there ….I know plenty of great sailors that get pretty much legless when racing and it’s hasn’t caused them any problems . It’s sort of a Rite of passage , go racing get fucked up . Insurance companies could require that new boat owners do a coastguard or similar boatmaster course to qualify for insurance . If you don’t have insurance you can’t get a marina berth and a few other things . Same with drinking , if you are pissed and have a cluster , no cover . That’s very hard to enforce though or probably impossible . Coastguard could maybe do that at point of tow or rescue but it opens a can of worms and could put them at risk of violence . If it was an insurance based control it still leaves the Rebels/idiots freedom to do whatever they like on the water with the massive risk of huge financial loss . |
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Post by Fogg on May 13, 2023 16:06:43 GMT 12
CG has zero interest in getting involved in law enforcement - as it’s not in their constitution and they have no legal mandate. That’s why they don’t even get involved in low level stuff like enforcing life jackets. They leave that to the tossers in the Harbourmaster boats.
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Post by dutyfree on May 15, 2023 21:03:16 GMT 12
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Post by fish on May 15, 2023 21:06:19 GMT 12
Downloaded from DF's link...
Who can see what I can see?
Note, this is copied from a .csv file. Where there is no number, there were no fatalities...
Fatalities 2022 YTD
Fall 10
Flood/Civil Emergency 9
Rescuing Others 2
River Crossing
Slipped Under 3
Swept Away
Unknown Immersion Incident
Angling 1
Net Fishing
Shellfishing
Canoeing
Kayaking 1
Rafting
Rowing Craft / Dinghy
Stand Up Paddle Boarding
Occupational Related
Jet Boat
Jet Skis
Powered Boat Over 4m
Powered Boat Under 4m
Sailing
Free Diving 1
Scuba Diving 2
Snorkelling
Board Riding 1
Boogie Boarding
Diving / Jumping 1
Other Recreation
Swimming 12
Tubing / Canyoning
Water Skiing
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Post by armchairadmiral on May 15, 2023 21:09:20 GMT 12
When I looked at that it's difficult to understand the obsession with lifejackets & the enforcement. Not opposed to l/j but I can see that they aren't the panacea they are portrayed as . Or is there something I'm missing?
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Post by harrytom on Jul 15, 2023 4:12:16 GMT 12
Now to pull the article apart. www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/transport-accident-inquiry-commission-calls-for-regulation-of-all-recreational-skippers-boats/W2TDW7XR25GIVPPKYOSZRO2LGM/“Anyone can skipper a recreational boat - even with no safe boating skills and no understanding of their responsibilities for the lives of people on board.” YEA TO A COMPULSARY SAFETY COURSE The skipper chose to take the boat over the hazardous section of water at the bar in the harbour, rather than through the South Channel. The TAIC report found this placed the boat at higher risk of sinking. CG RUN BAR CROSSING COURSES AND BAR USERS SHOULD BE COMPULSARY.BEEN ACROSS ONCE NO INTENTION OF GOING AGAIN. None of the group was wearing lifejackets, and all of them had blood alcohol levels higher than that of the road driving limit of 50 milligrams per 100 millilitres of blood. LJ ARE COMPULSARY TO BE WORN WHILE CROSSING BARS AND IF DONE THE COURSE WOULD KNOW TO CONTACT CG BEFORE AND AFTER CROSSING AS CG GIVE AROUND 20MINUTES FOR FURTHER CONTACT OF SAFE CROSSING BEFORE ACTION TAKEN.AS FOR ALCOHOL,WE HAVE LAWS FOR DRINK DRIVING VEHICLES SO MAYBE A VESSEL SHOULD BE REGARDED AS A VESSEL? BUT STILL THERES THAT ELIMENT WHO DISREGARD. None of the group was wearing lifejackets, and all of them had blood alcohol levels higher than that of the road driving limit of 50 milligrams per 100 millilitres of blood. THERE IS AS ABOVE BUT HAS A COST AND AS RECREATIONAL THINK EVERYTHINK SHOULD BE FREE OR OUR RIGHT. A legal requirement for boaties Maritime rules provide that it is the skipper's legal responsibility to ensure that lifejackets are worn in situations of heightened risk, such as when crossing a bar, in rough water, during an emergency, and by non-swimmers. The capsizing of the vessel off Clarkes beach I believe alcohol involved,no life jackets,weather was shit,girlfriend and boy die(boys mother)The excuse skipper gave,scallop dredge stuck and all onboard went to one side to fre it,now facing manslaughter cherges. Should there be a maritime unit on the Manukau,proberly yes as not user friendly.Have fished on it several times,in the harbour,last time out .Gentle ne 5 knts slack water 8.00am,tide turned wind came up and next minute .5m swell from the north,high tailed back up the river,all changed in about 20 minutes,yet now casting still predicting ne 5knts variable. |
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Post by harrytom on Aug 24, 2023 12:39:33 GMT 12
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Post by GO30 on Aug 26, 2023 9:33:00 GMT 12
The data does not support the need for licensing, it is that simple. Many say 'look at Aussie' and yes do look at Aussie, what started as 'just a basic safetly move' is now a multi million dollar industry all paid for by the dick on the stick. You'll note almost every call for licencing comes from a Govt Dept or a Council and what do those love doing? Being your Nana. I'd like to see more do basic courses like Day Skipper, Boatmaster etc but how to get them to do that without the political bullshit behind it is what we need to figure out. I think the insurance industry would be a good method, not unlike the motorbike 'Ride Forever' program. That is not compulsory but it is supported by the ACC and the Insurance industry as they are seeing real measurable, and very good, results. That is aimed all all motorcyclists, even super long times like myself. To be honest I was a little sceptical but having done a course I'm now a massive fan and salesman for it. I, and 6 others, paid $50 to have a very clued up rider (in our case a ex motorbike traffic cop) to come for a ride with us and critique our riding. It took him only a few minutes to see I was riding a roadie but cornering like I was on dirt so a chat later had me cornering far easier and safer....and faster using less fuel but we're not racing people  At the end of a awesome day we all received Pins and twice the 50 notes off our next set of premiums, not to mention our actual on the road riding was tuned better. The insurance industry and ACC are seeing real significant measurable results in less 2 wheelers in hospital and those going in less damaged, so a win-win-win. If we could do the same around boats then maybe we can get better skill levels without having Nana State fucking things up as it too often does. |
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Post by harrytom on Aug 26, 2023 9:59:54 GMT 12
Insurance companies will jump on the band wagon soon.No quail no insurance.Just a basic rule of the road is needed,As said before could have lots $$ with no knowledge. Shown how to put sails or engage forward drive and off you go.No knowledge of port/starboard yacht v power boat or even what a diver flag is or means.I get a $20 discount from AMI for holding a boat master even though I did it back 1985? but a light/rule book handy.
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