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Post by Duckmaster. on Nov 2, 2023 20:17:49 GMT 12
So, you state the whole NZ racing community is talking about this, but for some reason, you don't want us to talk about it, on a sailing forum? Are you a bit simple? You have probably noticed no one has given a race round up on crew org ? Most years there’s a good bit of banter and bullshit post race . This year is different for a good reason . Criticising the helmsman is out of hand , have some respect guys Well said and thank you for saying it! |
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Post by fish on Nov 2, 2023 20:26:32 GMT 12
So, you state the whole NZ racing community is talking about this, but for some reason, you don't want us to talk about it, on a sailing forum? Are you a bit simple? You have probably noticed no one has given a race round up on crew org ? Most years there’s a good bit of banter and bullshit post race . This year is different for a good reason . Criticising the helmsman is out of hand , have some respect guys On the race round ups aspect, there has been a marked decline of that on crew. A lot of teams now have their dedicated facebook page. Most boats seem to have their banter direct on FB now, rather than some random forum with obscure rules and censorship. I have seen a few race round ups on FB, not as many as I was expecting, and every one of them acknowledged the tragedy. At the risk of stating the obvious, it certainly put a dampner on things. |
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Post by Duckmaster. on Nov 2, 2023 20:45:27 GMT 12
Pretty sure the initial reports I saw on NZ Herald on the Saturday mentioned the incident happening at 2340 just South of Cape Brett, so using the Tracker it became obvious which yacht was involved. Don’t think there was any mention of Police getting involved . RIP to the sailor and let’s hope that is the first and only fatality on this fabulous race The police get involved in every accidental death - that's their legal mandate. They will interview every person on that boat individually down to the minute detail - they will interview and get statements from the coast guard team, they will get the call logs from the coast guard radio and the subsequent phone records. All of that information will be provided to the coroner. Unfortunately I have been through this before, (not for sailing - but two other accidental deaths on other trips), it won't be a pleasant experience for the crew or the club and definitely not for the skipper, many will have to testify to the coroner, coast guard will be asked why they couldn't get there sooner with their defibrillator. The person on the helm will be feeling like shit and they will be questioned on their experience. There will be a lot of focus on the response effort including the actions of the crew. There will also probably be some focus on the MHYC on what their processes and decision points are for cancelling the race and evidence of the decisions made, how they communicated the forecast and risks to the fleet, etc etc... My past experience with the coronial process tells me that it's highly likely the coroner will make some recommendations that will change the race in some way... |
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Post by GO30 on Nov 3, 2023 14:55:31 GMT 12
This thread has turned very NZ hasn't it.
What can we learn from the accident?
Shut the fuck up you disrespectful arseholes.
A month later the same thing happens again as no one was allowed to learn what went wrong hence the fleet stays as ignorant as it was before and the dudes very unfortunate death that could teach us all something damn important just does not happen.
I would have thought a long time teacher and yachtie would prefer us all to learn from what went wrong.
So if I go out in some form like that and someone says 'shut up, don't be disrespectful' please punch them very hard in the face from me and then exclude them from the conversation I WANT YOU TO HAVE about my demise in a effort to learn enough to stop it happening again.
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Post by em on Nov 3, 2023 20:25:24 GMT 12
This thread has turned very NZ hasn't it. What can we learn from the accident? Shut the fuck up you disrespectful arseholes. A month later the same thing happens again as no one was allowed to learn what went wrong hence the fleet stays as ignorant as it was before and the dudes very unfortunate death that could teach us all something damn important just does not happen. I would have thought a long time teacher and yachtie would prefer us all to learn from what went wrong. So if I go out in some form like that and someone says 'shut up, don't be disrespectful' please punch them very hard in the face from me and then exclude them from the conversation I WANT YOU TO HAVE about my demise in a effort to learn enough to stop it happening again. Having a dig at the helmsman based on the boats course on the tracker is fucked up . You are well placed enough to get the gossip on what happened so pursue that avenue and let us know what really happened . Speculation and cheap digs at the helmsman on this forum just isn’t cricket in my opinion and granted it wasn’t you that had a crack so all good there . |
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Post by fish on Nov 3, 2023 21:14:31 GMT 12
Have a look at the tracking of the boat which had the unfortunate accident, and you can see multiple gybes (6-7) taking place in the hour leading up to the tragedy. Other yachts around it during same time period weren/t gybing at all, Was something up with the steering sysytem causing boat to slew all over the course ? Seems odd, and then culminated with a nasty accident and death This is the post that has caused the offence around criticising the helmsperson. Two things to note: 1) It appears to have been edited, removing blatant criticism of the helmsperson, 2) it is posted by an 'Unknown Guest' So either, it is some that knows they are being a bit cunty and not wanting to put their name to it, someone trolling, or a complete ignoramous that is not a regular on this forum and doesn't actually know what they are talking about. Anyone else sure this comment has been 'downgraded' in the extent of the criticism? I'm fairly sure it has. That would indicate the poster is a regular here and noted the criticism of his criticism. I'm not really sure why people don't have the common decency to post under the one user name, but each to their own. In my view, if you are going to make a call in a public forum, you need to either stand by it and defend it logically, or if you are wrong, just fess up, say you were wrong and apologise. I've had to do it in the past. (Once, I think, in 1984, admitting I was wrong that is...) PS Duckmaster did have a pop at me for asking questions that would have identified the boat. On that, since working out which track it was, it has given me great insight into the events post accident, in that the boat had to go into Deepwater Cove, and it appears that this was the first instance that CG could get onboard with the defibulator, 2 hr 30 after the incident. So I think having some knowledge as to what went on is very valuable for others learning. Noting that discussion does need to be respectful, and calling the driver useless is not respectful. |
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Post by DuckMaster on Nov 3, 2023 21:15:29 GMT 12
This thread has turned very NZ hasn't it. What can we learn from the accident? Shut the fuck up you disrespectful arseholes. A month later the same thing happens again as no one was allowed to learn what went wrong hence the fleet stays as ignorant as it was before and the dudes very unfortunate death that could teach us all something damn important just does not happen. I would have thought a long time teacher and yachtie would prefer us all to learn from what went wrong. So if I go out in some form like that and someone says 'shut up, don't be disrespectful' please punch them very hard in the face from me and then exclude them from the conversation I WANT YOU TO HAVE about my demise in a effort to learn enough to stop it happening again. If we could actually hear from a person on the boat I would gladly listen to that person speak. But they are all being silent. I have heard a heap from a person who has sailed on the boat, and therefore knew some of the people on the boat that night, but they weren't actually there. So it's still second hand. What I am hearing is very interesting but I can't guarantee the accuracy of it cause it is now third hand heard by me over a beer after a Wednesday night race so I am not going to share it. Hell I couldn't even get the name of the boat from someone who actually knew. When I got told the name at Russell I asked how they knew, I went to that person they heard it from someone else, I went to that person, they heard it from somewhere else, I went to that person and as I didn't know the next person I gave up asking but it still wasn't from someone on the boat or someone involved in the recovery. I literally left Russell not knowing with 100% absolute certainty that I even knew which boat it was... The only reason I have any confidence in the boat name is that it's now been so long and there's been no official correction so therefore it must be right... So by all means have a conversation about the facts. But as we don't have any facts, except that a death occurred, IMO we should wait and hear what the facts are before making assumptions from a tracker which is notoriously bad. |
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Post by DuckMaster on Nov 3, 2023 21:23:38 GMT 12
Have a look at the tracking of the boat which had the unfortunate accident, and you can see multiple gybes (6-7) taking place in the hour leading up to the tragedy. Other yachts around it during same time period weren/t gybing at all, Was something up with the steering sysytem causing boat to slew all over the course ? Seems odd, and then culminated with a nasty accident and death This is the post that has caused the offence around criticising the helmsperson. Two things to note: 1) It appears to have been edited, removing blatant criticism of the helmsperson, 2) it is posted by an 'Unknown Guest' So either, it is some that knows they are being a bit cunty and not wanting to put their name to it, someone trolling, or a complete ignoramous that is not a regular on this forum and doesn't actually know what they are talking about. Anyone else sure this comment has been 'downgraded' in the extent of the criticism? I'm fairly sure it has. That would indicate the poster is a regular here and noted the criticism of his criticism. I'm not really sure why people don't have the common decency to post under the one user name, but each to their own. In my view, if you are going to make a call in a public forum, you need to either stand by it and defend it logically, or if you are wrong, just fess up, say you were wrong and apologise. I've had to do it in the past. (Once, I think, in 1984, admitting I was wrong that is...) You can't edit if you post as a guest. That post is as it was when it was posted. There was a subsequent post, by a member, quoting that post and mentioning the crazy word. That post is quoted in two further posts, one by you, and one by me, as a record of its existence... However, the post has now been edited by the aithor, and I take my hat off to the author for correcting their stance/view to use more appropriate language. I don't think we need to dwell on the origination of the "crazy" word. The message is we can't make assumptions. we need facts. |
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Post by DuckMaster on Nov 3, 2023 21:40:37 GMT 12
PS Duckmaster did have a pop at me for asking questions that would have identified the boat. On that, since working out which track it was, it has given me great insight into the events post accident, in that the boat had to go into Deepwater Cove, and it appears that this was the first instance that CG could get onboard with the defibulator, 2 hr 30 after the incident. So I think having some knowledge as to what went on is very valuable for others learning. Noting that discussion does need to be respectful, and calling the driver useless is not respectful. See that's another assumption. You don't know why they went to dwc. You don't know when cg got on board. It's perfectly possible that coast guard boarded them off Cape Brett and then instructed them to get to calmer waters so they could provide more assistance to the remaining injured crew and those who were suffering from shock. I actually went looking for the CG ais track and couldn't find it. So unless you have some factual details that that's the first time cg boarded them then it's only an assumption... I can also tell you with 100% certainty that the waters inside the Percy island/whale rock rumb line were very calm, protected and flat, albeit windy cause I was in them. Cg could easily have boarded anywhere inside that line. And I will also add, I heard CG say on the radio that they were 1.5 hrs away when they responded to the call and I am pretty sure they were coming from the south... And at that time the boat was (apparently) still south of cape Brett. So the boat might have even gone there before coast guard even got to cape Brett! I don't know. These are mere assumptions... |
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Post by em on Nov 3, 2023 21:49:46 GMT 12
This thread has turned very NZ hasn't it. What can we learn from the accident? Shut the fuck up you disrespectful arseholes. A month later the same thing happens again as no one was allowed to learn what went wrong hence the fleet stays as ignorant as it was before and the dudes very unfortunate death that could teach us all something damn important just does not happen. I would have thought a long time teacher and yachtie would prefer us all to learn from what went wrong. So if I go out in some form like that and someone says 'shut up, don't be disrespectful' please punch them very hard in the face from me and then exclude them from the conversation I WANT YOU TO HAVE about my demise in a effort to learn enough to stop it happening again. If we could actually hear from a person on the boat I would gladly listen to that person speak. But they are all being silent. I have heard a heap from a person who has sailed on the boat, and therefore knew some of the people on the boat that night, but they weren't actually there. So it's still second hand. What I am hearing is very interesting but I can't guarantee the accuracy of it cause it is now third hand heard by me over a beer after a Wednesday night race so I am not going to share it. Hell I couldn't even get the name of the boat from someone who actually knew. When I got told the name at Russell I asked how they knew, I went to that person they heard it from someone else, I went to that person, they heard it from somewhere else, I went to that person and as I didn't know the next person I gave up asking but it still wasn't from someone on the boat or someone involved in the recovery. I literally left Russell not knowing with 100% absolute certainty that I even knew which boat it was... The only reason I have any confidence in the boat name is that it's now been so long and there's been no official correction so therefore it must be right... So by all means have a conversation about the facts. But as we don't have any facts, except that a death occurred, IMO we should wait and hear what the facts are before making assumptions from a tracker which is notoriously bad. my view too and heard similar in Russell as well . |
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Post by em on Nov 3, 2023 21:56:31 GMT 12
PS Duckmaster did have a pop at me for asking questions that would have identified the boat. On that, since working out which track it was, it has given me great insight into the events post accident, in that the boat had to go into Deepwater Cove, and it appears that this was the first instance that CG could get onboard with the defibulator, 2 hr 30 after the incident. So I think having some knowledge as to what went on is very valuable for others learning. Noting that discussion does need to be respectful, and calling the driver useless is not respectful. See that's another assumption. You don't know why they went to dwc. You don't know when cg got on board. It's perfectly possible that coast guard boarded them off Cape Brett and then instructed them to get to calmer waters so they could provide more assistance to the remaining injured crew and those who were suffering from shock. I actually went looking for the CG ais track and couldn't find it. So unless you have some factual details that that's the first time cg boarded them then it's only an assumption... I can also tell you with 100% certainty that the waters inside the Percy island/whale rock rumb line were very calm, protected and flat, albeit windy cause I was in them. Cg could easily have boarded anywhere inside that line. And I will also add, I heard CG say on the radio that they were 1.5 hrs away when they responded to the call and I am pretty sure they were coming from the south... And at that time the boat was (apparently) still south of cape Brett. So the boat might have even gone there before coast guard even got to cape Brett! I don't know. These are mere assumptions... CG was in the Lee of Piercy when we went round the outside at 10.50 . They were shining spotlight up the cliff etc , guess they were training . |
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Post by GO30 on Nov 6, 2023 8:05:37 GMT 12
This thread has turned very NZ hasn't it. What can we learn from the accident? Shut the fuck up you disrespectful arseholes. A month later the same thing happens again as no one was allowed to learn what went wrong hence the fleet stays as ignorant as it was before and the dudes very unfortunate death that could teach us all something damn important just does not happen. I would have thought a long time teacher and yachtie would prefer us all to learn from what went wrong. So if I go out in some form like that and someone says 'shut up, don't be disrespectful' please punch them very hard in the face from me and then exclude them from the conversation I WANT YOU TO HAVE about my demise in a effort to learn enough to stop it happening again. Having a dig at the helmsman based on the boats course on the tracker is fucked up . You are well placed enough to get the gossip on what happened so pursue that avenue and let us know what really happened . Speculation and cheap digs at the helmsman on this forum just isn’t cricket in my opinion and granted it wasn’t you that had a crack so all good there . Absolutely 100% correct, speculation and cheap digs are the work of dickheads but there is zero reason why adults can't have a conversation about it in a very fair and respectful manner.
If like Ducky you don't know anything then keep quiet, that's the most respectful option and best way to avoid speculation, but for us who know more then if we can be adults and discuss accordingly, which will mean bits some many know are not posted or maybe randomised in the interest of privacy, we may just help save another tragedy like that.
Over time the report on the event will come out and we'll see what that says. But often they are couched in legalese or officialdom speak when for many the best takeaway would be 'When you are on a 20kt plus slide and everything is pressed up hard, don't try to steer with your foot while you roll a smoke as bad shit will happen'. As we seem to need to do it these days NO THAT IS NOT A COMMENT ON THE CC INCIDENT, that did happen but on a 30fter in a SSANZ triple.
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Post by em on Nov 6, 2023 8:53:16 GMT 12
Having a dig at the helmsman based on the boats course on the tracker is fucked up . You are well placed enough to get the gossip on what happened so pursue that avenue and let us know what really happened . Speculation and cheap digs at the helmsman on this forum just isn’t cricket in my opinion and granted it wasn’t you that had a crack so all good there . Absolutely 100% correct, speculation and cheap digs are the work of dickheads but there is zero reason why adults can't have a conversation about it in a very fair and respectful manner.
If like Ducky you don't know anything then keep quiet, that's the most respectful option and best way to avoid speculation, but for us who know more then if we can be adults and discuss accordingly, which will mean bits some many know are not posted or maybe randomised in the interest of privacy, we may just help save another tragedy like that.
Over time the report on the event will come out and we'll see what that says. But often they are couched in legalese or officialdom speak when for many the best takeaway would be 'When you are on a 20kt plus slide and everything is pressed up hard, don't try to steer with your foot while you roll a smoke as bad shit will happen'. As we seem to need to do it these days NO THAT IS NOT A COMMENT ON THE CC INCIDENT, that did happen but on a 30fter in a SSANZ triple.
All good points . If the crew have talked about it outside of the group then it’s out in the public forum and open to discussion . It goes without saying that MNZ is probably having a good poke around the incident which adds to the gravity of the situation . you probably remember the shit slinging on creworg after the Platino incident ? Many people came out swinging cause they had a mate that perished or the had a bone to pick with the owners or they were mates with the boatbuilder that fitted the traveller etc . That was ugly and some of the speculation was way off the mark compared to the MNZ report when it was released . I could see this was possibly heading down that track which is why I reacted the way I did . |
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Post by harrytom on Nov 6, 2023 15:06:01 GMT 12
Being a race organised by the nzmyc under ynz sailing rules. Does YNZ do its own investigation or just left to MNZ?
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Post by DuckMaster on Nov 6, 2023 16:26:27 GMT 12
Being a race organised by the nzmyc under ynz sailing rules. Does YNZ do its own investigation or just left to MNZ? I don't know the answer to if they are doing one. In the previous incidents I was involved in one of those clubs did an investigation and called in professionals to review there processes and systems. The other did nothing. When the Coronial inquest occurred, the club that had done nothing got a bollocking, and the club that had done something and made some changes was highly praised... There's no legal mandate I am aware of but the club and YNZ would do well to do a review and make improvements where necessary before the Coronial inquest. They might struggle as the crew might not be interested in participating, but at least they will have tried and done what they could... |
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