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Post by GO30 on Feb 11, 2024 10:12:54 GMT 12
We see more of these in anchor rodes. We have tried to get them taken off the market and as much as many organisations claim to be consumer safety focused, inc Govt Depts tasked with this very job, none give a fuck about you or yours, they seemingly only care about your wallet.
Stainless steel C Type chain joining links. We purchased some from the main importer, there are a few smaller, and put them to the test again. We did this a wee while back and the results were so fucking scary that's why we tried to get them stopped. I approached the main importer and said 'WTF dude, who are you trying to kill or do you have zero product knowledge (something they demonstrate a LOT) or it is you care so little about your customers you don't mind if a few die to maintain your profits?'. When they asked 'where did you get these silly numbers from?',I replied 'your own website you muppets'. The big boss dude, who is OK even if focused incorrectly, said he'd sort it. A few days later I got word 'All sorted now problem gone away'.
I assumed they has stopped selling them but no, they sorted the problem by taking the specs off their website so no one knew how substandard they are.
We had a case on Xmas where chain failed, chinese shit that came in via Aussie. We got asked to give an opinion on it (we have 'expert' status with some insurance mobs) and in sussing we found the chain was very weak but while doing so we noticed a SS Clink in it that was broken as well. Word was the link was purchased in Tauranga only a few weeks prior.
So I got some more links and put them to the test again hoping they had improved. Snapshot results
Note the load numbers are maximum achieved. At less than 50% of those loads the links were so out of spec they wouldn't fit in your winch any longer.
So how do they stack up? 8mm -
SS Clink 2492kg Grade 20 shit grade which is relatively new to NZ due to the large number of sellers who have zero product knowledge - 2250kg A good Grade 30 which has been NZ's base chain for decades - 3200kg minimum Some being sold as G30 - 3200kg maybe on a good day
Grade 40 which is becoming quite popular as boats grow - 4000kg. We have seen these SS links in this grade chain
Basically the 8mm Clink is not as strong as basic 7mm chain or even a G40 6mm.
10mm - SS CLink - 3872kg 8mm G30 chain - 3200kg
8mm G40 chain - 4000kg 10mm shitty as G20 chain - 3450kg 10mm G30 chain - 5000kg 10mm G40 chain - 6500kg 10mm G70 chain - 11200kg
12mm -
SS CLink - 4698kg is there any point going further when we already see the basic 10mm is stronger? Technically there is no G30 12mm chain but Italy does make us some 12mm in G30 as some boats like big weight, there are 38fters out there on 12mm, gawd knows why. Anyway a G30 12mm 7400kg minimum.
Proper ISO4565 Standard 12mm chain 9250kg so twice as strong as the links a few boats have in their rodes.
And to get a silly on we have a 12mm with a break above 16,000kg.
So freaky shit your Government and industry seem perfectly fine with. I wonder how many have such a large flaw in the key system that keeps them alive while they sleep or when they are the most twitchy caught in a blow.
The videos of the testing, and we've checked more than just those, will be in our new website popping up very shortly. Would have been there already but I made the mistake of thinking the mob called FreeParking knew what it was doing, it doesn't so do not go there, you will be very disappointed.
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Post by dutyfree on Feb 12, 2024 18:00:06 GMT 12
Thanks for the info, really appreciate that someone actually gives a shit
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Post by Fogg on Feb 12, 2024 19:08:14 GMT 12
GO30 this is great.
You should take this to Consumer NZ, Maritime NZ, Boating NZ and the media.
Given how the state is always telling us to be careful out there with nanny state lectures about life jackets, weather forecasts and 2 methods of communication etc. Maybe they should take a look at equally dangerous equipment being freely sold across the marine market.
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Post by fish on Feb 12, 2024 19:16:37 GMT 12
When the lightbulb fitting in my bathroom turned itself into a flame-spitting-ray-gun, I thought it prudent to inform my insurance co. I had a discussion with the guy on the phone about claims and grounds for denying a claim. The insurance co's wont cover things with known specific issues. He gave an example of a particular brand of plumbing pipe used in the 70's. This is known to burst and leak a lot. Insurance co's wont cover damage from this as apparently it's widely known it's an issue (I'd never heard of the pipe) and it should be replaced as part of general maintenance and renewals that reasonable homeowner would do. As an aside, we had an extended discussion around consequential damage, if this was a sudden and unplanned event then they would cover consequential damage. The insurance guy said they wouldn't cover my $50 light fitting, but if the house burnt down they would cover the house. Like I'd give a fuck about a $50 light fitting if my $1mil house burnt down. Anyway.
I'm telling this story as an example. If you want to increase the heat on the dodgy link importer, you could do your civic duty and ensure the insurance co's are aware of the defective and substandard nature of those joiners. If the insurance co's are warning (or denying) boat owners about substandard links, there would be a proportionate blowback on the supplier. Risk and financial liability have a strange way of influencing CEO's morals for the positive sometimes.
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Post by ComfortZone on Feb 12, 2024 19:56:02 GMT 12
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Post by DuckMaster on Feb 12, 2024 21:51:53 GMT 12
Why? They aren't advertised with a breaking strain... If someone is stupid enough to buy one and put it in a 11000kg rated chain and somehow expect it to just work at 11000kg then they are idiots! Why would you buy something that needed to meet a specification without knowing the specification of the product you're buying. I do agree that they should be advertising the breaking strain but their's no legal requirement to do such. The anchor chain on my alluminum tinny is 12x overrated for what I need. It's over-rated cause that's a convinent size for me to hold in my hands and I love how the stainless steel links run and move. There would be no problem putting one of these 8mm links in my chain... But I still wouldn't do it without knowing its specification. At 2500kg it's still 10x overrated... This is the same as some idiot buying a 10mm rope from bunnings that has no specifications on it and using it as a anchor rode... and complaining that it broke. Common sense prevails. If something is intended for a load bearing application then do your homework and find out what the specification of the product is. If the vendor can't or won't supply it then move on... |
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Post by GO30 on Feb 13, 2024 8:02:00 GMT 12
Why? They aren't advertised with a breaking strain... If someone is stupid enough to buy one and put it in a 11000kg rated chain and somehow expect it to just work at 11000kg then they are idiots! Why would you buy something that needed to meet a specification without knowing the specification of the product you're buying. I do agree that they should be advertising the breaking strain but their's no legal requirement to do such. The anchor chain on my alluminum tinny is 12x overrated for what I need. It's over-rated cause that's a convinent size for me to hold in my hands and I love how the stainless steel links run and move. There would be no problem putting one of these 8mm links in my chain... But I still wouldn't do it without knowing its specification. At 2500kg it's still 10x overrated... This is the same as some idiot buying a 10mm rope from bunnings that has no specifications on it and using it as a anchor rode... and complaining that it broke. Common sense prevails. If something is intended for a load bearing application then do your homework and find out what the specification of the product is. If the vendor can't or won't supply it then move on... Why? because they are the same ones. We have cast wide to make sure the ones we tested aren't loners, they aren't all we have tested get the same results. About the only variation we see between them is whether the dimension on them is metric or imperial.
No idea what industry you work in but work here for just one week and you'd see why we saw your comment
and thought WTF, what dimension is he living in? You'd obviously be MASSIVELY surprised at how many buy what is at times mission critical gear and the only thing they are interested in is what colour can they get it in. No shit, we're constantly amazed at how much people don't seem to give any thought to system matching or loads. The industry as a whole isn't much better judging by the multitude of basic lack of knowledge profit before performance products and services we get to fix up. Many punters are perfectly fine with average and sadly being sold shit that works once they won't bitch to the sellers about, it really is crazy shit at how many just shrug their shoulders when paying for gear to replace stuff that is basically new.
As a general rule a 6mtinny is far better anchored than a 50fter. As Mr Ducky notes, he could use smaller from a strength/performance point of view but how the F does he hang onto it. That is also somehting we have to point out to punters some times.
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Post by GO30 on Feb 13, 2024 8:19:34 GMT 12
GO30 this is great. You should take this to Consumer NZ, Maritime NZ, Boating NZ and the media. Given how the state is always telling us to be careful out there with nanny state lectures about life jackets, weather forecasts and 2 methods of communication etc. Maybe they should take a look at equally dangerous equipment being freely sold across the marine market. NZ is a small country and people are afraid of pissing people off so many are very reluctant to rock any boats. |
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Post by ComfortZone on Feb 13, 2024 9:59:53 GMT 12
Why? They aren't advertised with a breaking strain... If someone is stupid enough to buy one and put it in a 11000kg rated chain and somehow expect it to just work at 11000kg then they are idiots! Why would you buy something that needed to meet a specification without knowing the specification of the product you're buying. I do agree that they should be advertising the breaking strain but their's no legal requirement to do such. The anchor chain on my alluminum tinny is 12x overrated for what I need. It's over-rated cause that's a convinent size for me to hold in my hands and I love how the stainless steel links run and move. There would be no problem putting one of these 8mm links in my chain... But I still wouldn't do it without knowing its specification. At 2500kg it's still 10x overrated... This is the same as some idiot buying a 10mm rope from bunnings that has no specifications on it and using it as a anchor rode... and complaining that it broke. Common sense prevails. If something is intended for a load bearing application then do your homework and find out what the specification of the product is. If the vendor can't or won't supply it then move on... Taking Burnsco as the example, they are marketing these links in their "Anchors and Mooring" section of the Marine catalogue. Absent any qualifications on their part eg breaking loads or "only to be used for 316 SS Chain", the average punter would have the reasonable (a word lawyers love) expectation that this link is suitable for joining any grade of chain of that diameter being used for anchoring duties. Ideally a purchaser should do their own due diligence, but lack of detail on the vendor's part would not absolve them of legal responsibility of being fit for purpose. By comparison you go and buy one of these links from the general hardware section in M10/Bunnings, they could reasonably argue it was only ever intended for house hold use, hanging flower pots or whatever. |
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Post by GO30 on Feb 13, 2024 10:07:19 GMT 12
With SS chain in NZ most ex china is G30, almost all not from china are higher grades. We have 30, 40, 50 and 60. The 30 is from China the rest Italy and Germany.
So tagging 'only on 316 chains' could lead people down a dangerous path.
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Post by Duckmaster. on Feb 13, 2024 10:20:12 GMT 12
So I rang Burnsco and asked them what the rated breaking load was, this was the response: 5mm 550kg 6mm 800kg 8mm 1450kg 10mm 1900kg 12mm 3200kg Absolutely fine for my mooring/anchoring application... and notably rated much lower than GO30's tests. Ffs, 1450kg would rip the cleat off the front of the boat - an average 10m yacht has a rated mainsheet load of about 1000kg in a crash gybe, EVERY boat I know has way better holding capability on their mainsheet than they do on there anchor cleat. How many people here actually think their anchor cleat could take the amount of load their chain is even rated for? Just imagine hanging a large SUV off your anchor cleat - reckon it would hold a Toyota Landcruiser? That's less than a G30 chain can hold... Getting the specification for this product was super simple. Burnsco sell bucket loads of things without the specification on them, from halyard shackles to ropes, if you want something to meet a specific strength you ask. If you don't know what strength you need then you don't DIY it, you call in a professional who knows what loads you need... |
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Post by DuckMaster on Feb 13, 2024 11:32:21 GMT 12
To take this further let's not get the government or authorities to dumb down diy more than they already have...
I already can't change my own forestay because the insurance company said I am not a certified person...
I can't do 240v electrical work in my caravan and then get it inspected because it has to be done by a certified electrician and then inspected.
I can't do my own plumbing in case I get the specs of a pipe wrong.
I can't put a drain in unless I am a certified drain layer...
I can't renovate and membrane seal my own bathroom because the council believes that only certified applicators can apply the membrane.
Don't even get me started on the many legal things I cannot do myself and that I have to pay a lawyer to file some paperwork with the courts... Cause for some reason I cannot read.
Serious questions,
how many people here would buy an unrated anchor chain for their boat?
How many people here would buy a unrated turn buckle to diy the rigging on a 30ft yacht?
How many people would upgrade there backstay to fiber without knowing what load they need?
We're heading towards a society where common sense and personal responsibility are a thing of the past.
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Post by em on Feb 13, 2024 12:00:19 GMT 12
You’d be surprised . When I bought my bought boat the toggle jaws and Clevis pin on the forestay was missing . Forestay was connected to the stem fitting with a Chinese shackle with “316” stamped on it . The rig is a beautiful Ctech carbon job which is probably worth more than the boat .
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Post by fish on Feb 13, 2024 12:32:30 GMT 12
To take this further let's not get the government or authorities to dumb down diy more than they already have... I already can't change my own forestay because the insurance company said I am not a certified person... I can't do 240v electrical work in my caravan and then get it inspected because it has to be done by a certified electrician and then inspected. I can't do my own plumbing in case I get the specs of a pipe wrong. I can't put a drain in unless I am a certified drain layer... I can't renovate and membrane seal my own bathroom because the council believes that only certified applicators can apply the membrane. Don't even get me started on the many legal things I cannot do myself and that I have to pay a lawyer to file some paperwork with the courts... Cause for some reason I cannot read. Serious questions, how many people here would buy an unrated anchor chain for their boat? How many people here would buy a unrated turn buckle to diy the rigging on a 30ft yacht? How many people would upgrade there backstay to fiber without knowing what load they need? We're heading towards a society where common sense and personal responsibility are a thing of the past. Well, getting into politics, this current govt, ACT and nat in particular, are actually talking about brining back Personal Responsibility. Nat in the context of criminal justice, ACT just in general. That said, many of those arguments you give are also protectionism from the various trade bodies. I know a guy that was torn a new one (can't remember the actual sanctions) for giving advise on Facebook on how to change the pipe coupling on the back of the toilet. A registered plumber say it and laid a complaint with the Plumbers and Gasfitters Council. Sounded like that plumber was expecting to get the work and had quoted a rip off amount, owner did it himself. And it's worse in Aus, the unions are highly protective. A mate who is married to an Aust can't get chartered as an Engineer, cause he can't work as an engineer without being chartered but needs to show current experienced working as an engineer... He is chartered in NZ though. |
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Post by GO30 on Feb 14, 2024 13:19:28 GMT 12
So I rang Burnsco and asked them what the rated breaking load was, this was the response: 5mm 550kg 6mm 800kg 8mm 1450kg 10mm 1900kg 12mm 3200kg Absolutely fine for my mooring/anchoring application... and notably rated much lower than GO30 's tests. Ffs, 1450kg would rip the cleat off the front of the boat - an average 10m yacht has a rated mainsheet load of about 1000kg in a crash gybe, EVERY boat I know has way better holding capability on their mainsheet than they do on there anchor cleat. How many people here actually think their anchor cleat could take the amount of load their chain is even rated for? Just imagine hanging a large SUV off your anchor cleat - reckon it would hold a Toyota Landcruiser? That's less than a G30 chain can hold... Getting the specification for this product was super simple. Burnsco sell bucket loads of things without the specification on them, from halyard shackles to ropes, if you want something to meet a specific strength you ask. If you don't know what strength you need then you don't DIY it, you call in a professional who knows what loads you need... Holy crap, their 12mm are no stronger than should be way cheaper Chinese average 8mm short link chain. If the 8mm SS link if fitted into a system on a 11m boat, on which 8mm chain is common, if that boat gets a solid 50kn gust or a good 30 at the same time as a good wave that link will fail.
An 11m boat getting 50kn gusts is not unheard of, is it lads  so using one of the links in your rode has you right out on the ragged edge. Luckily most sleep poorly in 50kts so hopefully would feel the link go. So yes the loads are above what most will get but they are in a zone some boats do get.
If you a Crosby link then that 50kts lifts to 90-100kts. 11m boats copping 90-100kts is very very rare.
We sell more than Burnsco and maybe 1 in 10 people ask about the loads. In fact asking about loads is very rear, most just assume.
But if you didn't ask would you have been told as you crossed palms with coin? I very much doubt you would have so like a lot out there you could have put that link in your 3200kg chain not realising you have dropped the chains load by over 50%. Personally I have this nasty infliction where I prefer we do not fuck over the punters so when you come in here asking for one the very 1st thing you'll be asked is 'Do you know how weak they are?', an action we have done many times and every single time it's resulted in punters rasing eyebrows in surprise.
Good on BCo having the numbers on hand and being open with them, sadly not all are. That pleases me considerably but there is the nagging 'Did Ducky just happen to hit the one person who.....'. I hope he didn't.
We disagree strongly about the strength of cleats. There has been another spat of cleats coming off over Xmas. Yes some will be grunty as but some are weaker than shit. A 13m boat with it's main foredeck cleat held on by 2 x 1/4" bolts only last week, that scared the crap out of the importer. I'll also add decks in here. A couple of years ago we got asked to recover mooring in the Tamaki and suss how it failed after a 40 something came off onto the beach. We recovered the mooring to find it was perfectly fine, the head rope was still firmly attached to the cleat. The cleat was also still firmly attached to the approx 1000 x 500mm chuck of foredeck. That was a 1980'sthere about Vindex sort of thing - Note they all look the same to me so it may not have been a Vindex. I reckon water got under the teak and the ply rotted unseen and then one day the wind came up..... |
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so using one of the links in your rode has you right out on the ragged edge. Luckily most sleep poorly in 50kts so hopefully would feel the link go. So yes the loads are above what most will get but they are in a zone some boats do get.