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Post by muzled on Mar 18, 2024 11:50:06 GMT 12
Just had this from my boat insurer, has anyone else had the same request or should I be looking at changing?
Due to the number and cost of claims on moored vessels over 30 years old, in order to enable us to offer renewal we will need the attached condition report completed by an independent, suitably qualified Surveyor, Shipwright or Boatbuilder, with any costs being met by you.
As your boat is a yacht, we will also need:
confirmation of the age of the standing rigging
if the standing rigging is more than 10 years old, (or its age is unknown), a report by a qualified rigging engineer certifying that it is in good condition.
Please also provide some up-to-date photos of the vessel.
This will not likely be an annual requirement but will be required this time before renewal if terms are to be offered.
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Post by GO30 on Mar 18, 2024 12:25:06 GMT 12
Yeap.
over the last month I've asked 11 Insurance companies for liability insurance for Westhaven. Not sailing or racing.
22ft long yacht
Build bloody strong
No engineering at all
No fuels at all
No electrical at all
Top speed about the same as a quick snail
Lived in what is now called Westhaven before it was call that or Panuku was even a word
Zero claims during her lifetime
Launched 1913
Of those that did reply most said 'Need full out of water survey, inc the Rig with Photos' before we'll even talk to you.
Worst response was Tower. Not even talking unless we see a survey first. Then they started spamming me with multiple emails a day on assorted shit I never discussed or wanted.
The best reply was another who responded 'Are you setting us up to be scammed?'
Welcome to the future.
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Post by ComfortZone on Mar 18, 2024 13:40:10 GMT 12
Just had this from my boat insurer, has anyone else had the same request or should I be looking at changing? Due to the number and cost of claims on moored vessels over 30 years old, in order to enable us to offer renewal we will need the attached condition report completed by an independent, suitably qualified Surveyor, Shipwright or Boatbuilder, with any costs being met by you.
As your boat is a yacht, we will also need:
confirmation of the age of the standing rigging
if the standing rigging is more than 10 years old, (or its age is unknown), a report by a qualified rigging engineer certifying that it is in good condition.
Please also provide some up-to-date photos of the vessel.
This will not likely be an annual requirement but will be required this time before renewal if terms are to be offered.I have to go thru this for my offshore insurance, so they (Baileys/Vero) already have it on file for coastal cover. I guess they are wanting to get a baseline on the condition of boats they have covered. Not sure if such an animal exists as a "qualified rigging engineer", I get Dwayne from Yachtspars to do my checks Who is the underwriter? I can send you a copy of the condition report form if you want to have a look, just pm me. I was charged 1 hour by the boatbuilder to do it. |
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Post by fish on Mar 18, 2024 15:55:16 GMT 12
Just had this from my boat insurer, has anyone else had the same request or should I be looking at changing? Due to the number and cost of claims on moored vessels over 30 years old, in order to enable us to offer renewal we will need the attached condition report completed by an independent, suitably qualified Surveyor, Shipwright or Boatbuilder, with any costs being met by you.
As your boat is a yacht, we will also need:
confirmation of the age of the standing rigging
if the standing rigging is more than 10 years old, (or its age is unknown), a report by a qualified rigging engineer certifying that it is in good condition.
Please also provide some up-to-date photos of the vessel.
This will not likely be an annual requirement but will be required this time before renewal if terms are to be offered.Yes. It looks like you are with Nautical. It is an amazing ball-ache. I managed to get in writing they would still offer us insurance without a gas certificate, but it took a while. I'm going to get a gas certificate anyway. Will cost about $2k by the time I'm done. Huge variance in pricing for the condition assessment. From $900 to $1,800. Where are you based? I've already spoken to most people so can DM you the ones that were worth talking to. Even though it doesn't state it, they are expecting an out of water hull survey. |
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Post by muzled on Mar 18, 2024 16:44:08 GMT 12
Thanks fellas.
Yep, with Nautical. Part of me is tempted to sell the boat and flick them the bird.
I need to come out to antifoul this year so guess I'll get the survey done then.
I'll probably use Russ Alexander as he did the survey for the guy who owned it before me, and again when I bought it.
It was $600 when we bought it 8 years ago so I was hoping it would be under a grand this time.
Goodbye $1000, it was nice having you for a brief time...
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Post by em on Mar 18, 2024 17:49:03 GMT 12
I will say it again and countless others have too “ Marina shop opua” , 34 year old boat , no problem . Under writer is UK based , no rigging check required . Just renewed last week with no questions asked . God knows what happens if you make a claim though . www.marine-insurance.co.nz/https://www.marine-insurance.co.nz/ |
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Post by harrytom on Mar 18, 2024 17:56:17 GMT 12
Have found myself in a position, have been for awhile,to buy another moored vessel but insurance/haulout/maintaince /insurance/mooring fees etc Just doesnt seem a viable option due lack of use. Trailer boats at this stage is still my best bet until retirement where I may look at liveaboard. 5/6yrs time
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Post by chariot on Mar 18, 2024 18:02:41 GMT 12
You are right HT. Enjoying the trailer boat more than I thought I would. Costs are almost non existent. Mind you, the size and value of some of the trailer boats down here for the Kubota was eye watering.
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Post by fish on Mar 18, 2024 18:13:51 GMT 12
Goodbye $1000, it was nice having you for a brief time... And the rest. If there are too many 'requires attention' on your form, they won't offer you insurance again. They wont tell you why or what the issues were. Just no insurance. You know when you take out new insurance and they ask if you have ever had insurance declined, well, if you've just had insurance declined, it puts you in a VERY sticky situation getting new insurance. Russ Alexander was certainly the cheapest I spoke to, and sounded the most flexible as well. So, on top of your $1k for the survey, there is probably $300 for a rig check (more if you have furling gear) and more for anything that needs 'maintenance', including flares in date, LJ's, fire extinguishers, bilge pumps. Do your windows leak? Paint in good condition? Bilge clean blah blah. My process is going to cost me $4-5k, assuming there are no fatal findings in the hull or rig survey. If there are, I don't know what I'll do. It wont be possible to sell a boat that can't get insurance, or I'd have to discount it heavily with the expectation a purchaser sorts any issues out so they can get insurance. But in this market who would do that? The thing that is graunching my gears, is that $4-5k or so is completely un-budgeted. I've already marked out the big invoices for the boat over the year (mooring, insurance etc) and was planning on what I was going to do for regular renewals / improvements. Sure, I may be being excessively conservative over fear of not getting offered insurance. One thing I will be doings is once I have the hull and rig survey is shopping around. Have zero loyalty to Nautical now, and will be able to apply for insurance with all the outfits that require hull and rig surveys, not just the Marina Shop and whoever else doesn't ask for that stuff. |
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Post by sabre on Mar 18, 2024 19:09:38 GMT 12
If your boat is well maintained and you have a reasonable amount of sea time, it shouldn't be a big issue. I paid $300 for a detailed condition report on a 26fter. Insurance was painless and suprisingly cheap once that was done.
I used Oceania who got the insurance through Vero.
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Post by ComfortZone on Mar 18, 2024 20:07:21 GMT 12
I will say it again and countless others have too “ Marina shop opua” , 34 year old boat , no problem . Under writer is UK based , no rigging check required . Just renewed last week with no questions asked . God knows what happens if you make a claim though . www.marine-insurance.co.nz/https://www.marine-insurance.co.nz/Their web site is saying they cannot provide cover for boats on swing moorings. Assume piles are still ok with them. |
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Post by harrytom on Mar 18, 2024 22:13:35 GMT 12
I will say it again and countless others have too “ Marina shop opua” , 34 year old boat , no problem . Under writer is UK based , no rigging check required . Just renewed last week with no questions asked . God knows what happens if you make a claim though . www.marine-insurance.co.nz/https://www.marine-insurance.co.nz/Their web site is saying they cannot provide cover for boats on swing moorings. Assume piles are still ok with them. Thats one of the problems I found recently when making enquiries in to insurance,swing mooring and location.Seems piles are ok. With so many old shitters on moorings becoming a liability as no mooring maintaince/vessel in disrepair. Now this is where local harbour master/councils need to step in.Find owners and say ex amount of time and vessels must be removed. Think AK council/harbour master requirement is.Vessels must be in a sea worthy condition to be moored. Comes back to whats been covered so many times,whose going to pay for removal?? I am picking it should go back to last known owner ,hopefully previous owner will remember who they sold it too. Remember all insurances have gone up,home/car/boat due to recent weather events.Insurance companies are not there for you,bit like life insurance ,its a gable on how long you live and premiums adjusted accordingly to age. |
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Post by GO30 on Mar 18, 2024 22:18:02 GMT 12
When I asked a couple 'Please define what you regard as a 'qualified person'? I was told someone who looks at things like this are a big part of their job. So I said I run a company who can check and certify lifting strops, chains used on cranes, wires on winches thru to anchoring systems on superboats that are accepted by the likes of the NZ Govt,BV, ABS, Lloyds. I am also a Sparmaker by trade. Am I acceptable? They said Yes to winch I replied then I can tell you know all I will do is look at it as load testing is now deemed to cause more potential issues than they save, which is true. They said fine, put it on paper.
The bar seems to be a piece of paper with some la-de-da wording and they are OK with it. So I've already done my out of water yet she's not due to come out for 3 weeks  Hence some la-de-da on Dwaynes letterhead should cruise thru.
If you wanted to really do it properly you need to Xray or dye crack test and even then that doesn't really show the inside of swages well. The last rigging failure I nearly had was 15mm down in a swage fitting, the rod had broken. We only picked it up as we were dropping the rig, intentionally.
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Post by ComfortZone on Mar 19, 2024 8:28:40 GMT 12
FYI all the Vero forms are here www.mariner.co.nz/forms-documents/Mariner/Vero are still offering insurance for certain mooring fields, there is a list of 40 odd locations of areas they will not offer cover. From my recollection up any of the rivers - Clevedon, Tamaki, Whau Creek, Milford, Mahurangi, Matakana and the Upper Harbour are all OK. Algies Bay definitely a no-no. |
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Post by fish on Mar 19, 2024 9:06:27 GMT 12
When I asked a couple 'Please define what you regard as a 'qualified person'? I was told someone who looks at things like this are a big part of their job. So I said I run a company who can check and certify lifting strops, chains used on cranes, wires on winches thru to anchoring systems on superboats that are accepted by the likes of the NZ Govt,BV, ABS, Lloyds. I am also a Sparmaker by trade. Am I acceptable? They said Yes to winch I replied then I can tell you know all I will do is look at it as load testing is now deemed to cause more potential issues than they save, which is true. They said fine, put it on paper.
The bar seems to be a piece of paper with some la-de-da wording and they are OK with it. So I've already done my out of water yet she's not due to come out for 3 weeks Hence some la-de-da on Dwaynes letterhead should cruise thru.
If you wanted to really do it properly you need to Xray or dye crack test and even then that doesn't really show the inside of swages well. The last rigging failure I nearly had was 15mm down in a swage fitting, the rod had broken. We only picked it up as we were dropping the rig, intentionally.
How much for a rig check certificate GO30? I have had so much nonsense from Nautical trying to clarify their requirements. They require an automatic bilge pump, even though we have a dry bilge. No mention of flowrate, capacity, sizing or anything, just require an automatic bilge pump. Their forms require flares are in date. As you know I hate flares, think they are dangerous to use and as such have several other forms of communication, normally carried on me, permanently mounted on my LJ. Anyway, they couldn't say what requirements my flares had to comply with, YNZ, Cat x, y or z, Coastguard (who state two forms of communications, don't mention flares) or some other requirements. Did I need a coastal flare pack, inshore flare pack, Cat 1 flare pack... Then the question, does your gas comply with NZ Standards? What a feckin can of worms. Yes, because the install predates the 2010 gas Act and the Act is not retrospective. No, because it does not comply with the current requirements. What do Nautical mean by 'comply'? On discussion with the Nautical guy, he stated "as long as it is safe". OK. It has been safe for the last 38 years, but how do I get someone to certify it is safe. I need a gas fitter. Hmm. Then, the current gas standards prescribe what is deemed safe. So how can I get someone to state it is safe when it doesn't comply with the current prescription with what is safe - Nautical Guy "I'll have to come back to you on that", yeah, spinner. So, talk to gas fitter. State system is small bottle and single stove, nothing else. He states it must have copper pipe (we have hose), with flexible stainless hose at each end, two gas sniffers interlinked with a solenoid shut off valve. Then, Nautical Guy says "as long as your system doesn't have copper pipe, we don't like that cause it corrodes" FAARRRKKKKKK!!!!! Turns out, the Gas Standards (which I have access to) state that if it is a single appliance only, you can use gas hose, as we have, to NZS 1869 class C. Grr, so the Gas fitter doesn't appear to understand or be familiar with the regs, and wants to add $2-3k to the job for shits and giggles. That gas fitter is widely recommended in the industry, including by marine stove retailers. Get hold of a different gas fitter (recommended by our boat builder, who will do the survey) who confirms I can used gas hose not copper pipe, don't need sniffers or a solenoid valve. I can run a new gas hose, apply warning labels and stickers etc, but he is still going to charge me $770 of crimping either end of the hose and issueing a certificate. That is after I spend $2k replacing the perfectly good stove with a new, shitty one, cause me existing stove doesn't have a user manual, and doesn't have automatic flame out on all elements (just the oven). While all this is going on, I actually need to replace my windows, cause one is leaking. Well, it's not leaking cause I have duct tape on it, but surveyor says that is no good. The windows is a renewal job I've planned and known about for a while. I need to do it now for the insurance survey, but the budget I had for the windows is blown on the survey and rig check... Really frustrating. And all I really want to do is go for a sail. Thinking seriously about selling the boat, but the market is flooded / dead, especially with everyone else like Muzled who are getting sick of all the new requirements and hoops to jump through for insurance and moorings etc. Sistership was listed at NY and hasn't sold yet. Then, to get her in good condition to sell I'd do all the jobs that need doing, get the full insurance checks, rig check, gas cert etc, so she is in top-shelf condition. Can't sell a boat that doesn't meet insurance requirements, cause a new owner has to have insurance to buy, so that can park it anywhere other than the swing mooring grave yards. But if I've done all that work, why would I want to sell her? Such a catch 22. Very frustrated. |
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Hence some la-de-da on Dwaynes letterhead should cruise thru.