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Post by fish on Sept 11, 2024 15:51:45 GMT 12
We finally get to see the wording of the Treaty Principles Bill today. Copied below. At first look, it seems it is hard to argue with. Includes specific mention of Iwi and Hapu and their rights conferred under the Treaty. The other two clauses just clear up any misunderstandings / all the nonsense. As an aside, I see the Mainstream Media are showing their hard left credentials by going absolutely rabid over the mere thought of the Bill. I haven't seen a single objective or balanced article or comment on it yet. There is a complete wall to wall of "this is evil, the world is going to end, ACT are pedaling genocide, etc" It looks like Luxon is being outrightly bullied into not supporting it. It is a shame Luxon and other community leaders aren't calling for a respectful and dignified debate, rather than all this emotive and decisive rhetoric. 1. Civil Government – the Government of New Zealand has full power to govern, and Parliament has full power to make laws. They do so in the best interests of everyone, and in accordance with the rule of law and the maintenance of a free and democratic society. 2. Rights of Hapū and Iwi Māori – The Crown recognises the rights that hapū and iwi had when they signed the Treaty/te Tiriti. The Crown will respect and protect those rights. Those rights differ from the rights everyone has a reasonable expectation to enjoy only when they are specified in legislation, Treaty settlements, or other agreement with the Crown. 3. Right to Equality – Everyone is equal before the law and is entitled to the equal protection and equal benefit of the law without discrimination. Everyone is entitled to the equal enjoyment of the same fundamental human rights without discrimination. Seymour said Parliament should legislate the Treaty principles, as he disagreed with how the courts interpreted them. www.stuff.co.nz/politics/350410988/david-seymours-treaty-principles-released-major-warnings-officials“Either Parliament defines them, or the courts will continue to venture into an area of political and constitutional importance,” he said. |
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Post by DuckMaster on Sept 11, 2024 17:07:59 GMT 12
This is a complete WOFTAM.
Nothing to see move along.
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Post by GO30 on Sept 13, 2024 14:00:54 GMT 12
This is a complete WOFTAM. Nothing to see move along.
Polling suggests over 60% would suggest they would like a chat about it Ducky.
Are you in the group that prefers we just push our heads even further into the sand to ensure NZ stays as racist as fuck?
The conversation is happening but in a uncontrolled way which can only lead to nasty sooner or later. Why not just throw it out there now and get it done n dusted.
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Post by sloopjohnb on Sept 13, 2024 14:23:00 GMT 12
Compltely agree with you there GO30 about getting done and dusted, as at the moment there is some distension in NZ regarding the TOW.
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Post by DuckMaster on Sept 13, 2024 19:58:10 GMT 12
This is a complete WOFTAM. Nothing to see move along.
Polling suggests over 60% would suggest they would like a chat about it Ducky.
Are you in the group that prefers we just push our heads even further into the sand to ensure NZ stays as racist as fuck?
The conversation is happening but in a uncontrolled way which can only lead to nasty sooner or later. Why not just throw it out there now and get it done n dusted.
Sure. But both National and NZ First have been very clear that they won't support it. So.... WOFTAM! |
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Post by GO30 on Sept 16, 2024 15:07:58 GMT 12
Both parties were also very clear in not supporting the Euthanasia bill either.
Labour promised to nationalise the PowerCos as soon as it got to power
TPM promised to 'burn NZ' if National won the election
We had a PM whose personal mission was to decrease child poverty
A party who promised black n blue to reduce immigration by 20-30K
yet......
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Post by DuckMaster on Sept 16, 2024 17:36:49 GMT 12
Well it's even less likely they will support it now that ACT have pretty much signed their death warrant by overreaching.
That 60% approval on what they campaigned will have dwindled to less than 10% with what they actually presented.
I think the public is much more aware of the complexities of Tiriti than Act gambled on - I reckon they signed their death warrant with this one - well atleast Seymour has.
I am very confident that in 2025 Luxon will stand true to his word - he will want to be as far away from this clusterfuck as possible.
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Post by GO30 on Sept 17, 2024 12:36:38 GMT 12
The 60% was a poll out about a month or so ago, not during the election.
Why should there be a clusterfuck? It's a very simple question. Should the elected NZ Government have the right to govern or not?
But will anyone be able to get any clarity amongst what will be a massive hypocrisy feast unlike we've never seen before, I seriously doubt it.
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Post by DuckMaster on Sept 17, 2024 15:16:52 GMT 12
The 60% was a poll out about a month or so ago, not during the election. Did you just make this up or did you read it somewhere? The 60% polling was from 1st - 4th October 2023. So almost 1 whole year ago!!! It was funded by the Tax Payers Union and undertaken by Curia they sampled a massive 1000 people from the population which was randomly selected from a sample of 15,000 people. The statements presented as part of the survey were not the same as those that Act has proposed in the Bill so the survey absolutely cannot reflect the proposed bills, but rather it reflects some fictional bill that has never been presented. if you want the actual facts you can check out the actual results of the survey here: assets.nationbuilder.com/taxpayers/pages/2336/attachments/original/1707694872/NZTU_Curia_October_23_%E2%80%93_Treaty_Principles.pdf?1707694872Please go ahead and link the evidence of this recent survey that show's 60%+ approval for the Bill the ACT has proposed. I will be happy to eat my hat. It's a very simple question. Should the elected NZ Government have the right to govern or not? Have you even read the proposed principles? I notice that you have made your own one up... I guess this is why this is a clusterfuck. |
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Post by muzled on Sept 17, 2024 15:47:37 GMT 12
Have you even read the proposed principles? I notice that you have made your own one up... I guess this is why this is a clusterfuck. No one has read the proposed principals yet. That's because they haven't been written yet. What has been written has gone to select committee and could come out looking exactly the same as it went in, or very different. I don't see how that makes it a clusterfuck, so unless I'm mistaken, surely it's standard procedure? |
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Post by DuckMaster on Sept 17, 2024 16:18:34 GMT 12
Have you even read the proposed principles? I notice that you have made your own one up... I guess this is why this is a clusterfuck. No one has read the proposed principals yet. That's because they haven't been written yet.
www.beehive.govt.nz/release/next-steps-agreed-treaty-principles-billCabinet has agreed for the following principles to be included in the Bill.The principles are listed in the first message in this thread by fish - I won't quote them again... Once again - it's a clusterfuck - like literally parliament have released a statement that says "these principles will be in the bill" and then they list the principles that will be in the bill. So those are the currently, right now, at this very moment, the proposed principles to go into the bill - yes the precise wording might change between the proposal and the actual writing of the bill, hell the entire content could change, but these are, right now the proposed principles for the the bill! Serioulsy if they are not the proposed principles for the bill, then what else are they!?! So yes, it is a clusterfuck, here on this board alone we have someone who has grossly misquoted one of the principles which have been proposed for inclusion in the Bill and claims 60% approval for it in a recent poll, and another person who claims the proposed principles to be included in the Bill are not even written yet. |
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Post by GO30 on Sept 17, 2024 16:29:53 GMT 12
I can see why you need it to be a clusterfuck when in fact it is very simple.
Personally I find your arrogance in calling the late King and a lot of far more knowledgeable Maori wrong both rude and a tad fucking disrespectful.
I also find it strange you keep referring to principals when there are none. Do you mean to say the 'proposed bill'?
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Post by DuckMaster on Sept 17, 2024 16:45:05 GMT 12
I can see why you need it to be a clusterfuck when in fact it is very simple. Personally I find your arrogance in calling the late King and a lot of far more knowledgeable Maori wrong both rude and a tad fucking disrespectful. I also find it strange you keep referring to principals when there are none. Do you mean to say the 'proposed bill'? Serioulsy, this whole thread is about the proposed principles for the bill. As you very well know there is no Bill yet. And as you also know there is no "proposed or draft bill" yet. All we have is a publically available cabinet paper, that has minuted and agreed to the wording of three proposed principles for the bill. These three proposed principles will be passed to the government department that is responsible for writing the draft Bill - yes the precise wording might change. To clarify, at this point in time cabinet have proposed and officially released three principles to be afrimed in a Bill which is yet to be written. |
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Post by muzled on Sept 17, 2024 16:46:51 GMT 12
No one has read the proposed principals yet. That's because they haven't been written yet.
www.beehive.govt.nz/release/next-steps-agreed-treaty-principles-billCabinet has agreed for the following principles to be included in the Bill.The principles are listed in the first message in this thread by fish - I won't quote them again... Once again - it's a clusterfuck - like literally parliament have released a statement that says "these principles will be in the bill" and then they list the principles that will be in the bill. So those are the currently, right now, at this very moment, the proposed principles to go into the bill - yes the precise wording might change between the proposal and the actual writing of the bill, hell the entire content could change, but these are, right now the proposed principles for the the bill! Serioulsy if they are not the proposed principles for the bill, then what else are they!?! So yes, it is a clusterfuck, here on this board alone we have someone who has grossly misquoted one of the principles which have been proposed for inclusion in the Bill and claims 60% approval for it in a recent poll, and another person who claims the proposed principles to be included in the Bill are not even written yet. Are you saying the guy that introduced the bill doesn't know what he's talking about? 1min43 in - Plunkett - Have we yet seen the bill as it will be presented to parliament? Seymour - No. What's happened last Monday is that cabinet has agreed on two things. 1 - basic policy settings, so what the bill will roughly say. And 2, the timing of getting the bill drafted and introduced to parliament, sending it to the select committee, having it public submissions, sending it back to parliament again. It's not clear what will happen once it gets back to parliament other than each party will be able to take its own position. theplatform.kiwi/podcasts/episode/david-seymour-on-the-cabinet-confirmed-treaty-principlesand again at 3.43 'what cabinet has agreed is that the parliamentary council office who are the government lawyers who do legal drafting of bills before they're introduced to parliament, the ball is in their court to do the actual wording' |
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Post by DuckMaster on Sept 17, 2024 16:57:56 GMT 12
From:
www.beehive.govt.nz/release/next-steps-agreed-treaty-principles-billCabinet has agreed for the following principles to be included in the Bill.The principles are listed in the first message in this thread by fish - I won't quote them again... Once again - it's a clusterfuck - like literally parliament have released a statement that says "these principles will be in the bill" and then they list the principles that will be in the bill. So those are the currently, right now, at this very moment, the proposed principles to go into the bill - yes the precise wording might change between the proposal and the actual writing of the bill, hell the entire content could change, but these are, right now the proposed principles for the the bill! Serioulsy if they are not the proposed principles for the bill, then what else are they!?! So yes, it is a clusterfuck, here on this board alone we have someone who has grossly misquoted one of the principles which have been proposed for inclusion in the Bill and claims 60% approval for it in a recent poll, and another person who claims the proposed principles to be included in the Bill are not even written yet. Are you saying the guy that introduced the bill doesn't know what he's talking about? 1min43 in - Plunkett - Have we yet seen the bill as it will be presented to parliament? Seymour - No. What's happened last Monday is that cabinet has agreed on two things. 1 - basic policy settings, so what the bill will roughly say. And 2, the timing of getting the bill drafted and introduced to parliament, sending it to the select committee, having it public submissions, sending it back to parliament again. It's not clear what will happen once it gets back to parliament other than each party will be able to take its own position. theplatform.kiwi/podcasts/episode/david-seymour-on-the-cabinet-confirmed-treaty-principlesand again at 3.43 'what cabinet has agreed is that the parliamentary council office who are the government lawyers who do legal drafting of bills before they're introduced to parliament, the ball is in their court to do the actual wording'This is exactly what I have said multiple times. You seem to be twisting this in some way to try and claim that the proposed principles are somehow something different. Let me spell it out: 1. Proposed principles for the bill have been written by cabinet - this is normal procedure. They are minuted in official cabinet papers that you can read online, but they are also quoted above by fish 2. The proposed principles for the bill have been passed to the government department that will write the draft Bill - the precise wording of the principles that cabinet wrote will probably change - but the intention will not 3. The draft Bill will be written, and returned to cabinet for approval or for changes - ?I don't think that we get to see the draft Bill? 4. After cabinets changes are taken into consideration a Final Bill will be released for public feedback/consultation |
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