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Post by dutyfree on Jan 10, 2022 16:59:06 GMT 12
Eri, I agree, they will only increase the tax burden, that is the problem. We already have unemployment cover, it is called the dole. IF they want to fund a new version via a new tax, then other tax should decline. As a 30 year plus employee I have paid a phenomenal amount of tax, I have also worked myself into a very nice life, starting from a $600 motorcycle and my bed and clothes courtesy of my parents. They also made sure I had a good education. I tell my kids, get a successful business and minimise your tax, you cant do it (easily) as an employee.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2022 17:01:05 GMT 12
So think about the social unemployment insurance. At a general level I dont have too many issues with it, if it was structured like Kiwisaver for instance. So you pay into your own "self-insurance" account up to a specified max for example. If you draw down on it then you get your own money back, but a taxpayer top-up if insufficient. Then when you get employed again, you top it back up etc. When you hit say 65 you get the balance if any released to you. If you never get employed and so dont have a positive balance you will get the standard minimum. I have until recently held my own income insurance and have often had it supplied by employers too. The problem with what the govt wants to do is they want it to be additive i.e. they will not reduce income tax to offset the new tax. So where does the new tax go? Not in a special account for each tax payer, no the general fund to be allocated to whatever the govt thinks is great. watch this scheme get screwed by the bludger that works a minimum to get the maximum benefit while once again the middle income earner pays thru the nose with higher fees, premiums etc. This will be an expensive underbelly subsidy scheme |
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Post by grounded on Jan 11, 2022 4:28:59 GMT 12
I think we all need to consider a few specific points. The World has dramatically changed and as such, Economists (and all us) cannot apply the same logic of the past, to the future.
I am not really sure what our Country will meet on the economical road ahead. But we are seeing small pieces of similarity to what took place at the end of the Spansh Flu. Apart from one large missing piece. The World today is not trying to recover and rebuild from the likes of WW1.
At the end of the Spanish Flu, some 70 million people had been taken out of the pool of Humanity. The world experienced a massive labour shortage. The Wealth or 70 to 100 million people was effectively up for grabs you could say. The result was that the Word experienced a massive period of "luxury" we now call the 20's. The down side of the 20's era was that there was little to spend their new gained wealth on, like all the toys we have today. So people became bored and created the "partying" atmosphere and lifestyle of the 20's.
In my view, Economists are currently making one big mistake. They are not taking into consideration that the World outside of NZ is temporarily on Hold and the music quitely playing in the background. Once the music stops and Countries get back toward normal again, the first issue they will come up against is a labour shortage. Actually that is the second thing. The first is already happening, being a goods shortage.
Back in the time after WW1, the Flu and then WW2, NZ was in a prime postion of being able to help restock the World by selling Meat and products. That will not be the case today, as Europe and other Countries are not all piles of Rubble like last time.
Just how we come out of this I think is a guess at best. Most certainly economists cannot take the old standard and apply it today. In fact they made that mistake with the first wave of Covid. We ended up having much higher GDP than any of the economists predicted and the Gvt suddenly found they had money they were not expecting. That may or maynot happen again. Many suggest it won't and it certainly won't if Omicron has it's way with us. But then again, we might come through unscathed as well. It's all a guess.
The other part to ponder in the equation is that we are currently experiencing a labour shortage. For instance, the Trucking indutry is screaming for drivers. Farming of labour intensive fruit picking has often meant crops being left on the ground to rot, because there are not enoug pickers.
As I said, I don't have an answer as to what will happen. But coming out of this is going to create opportunity as well. Just because we have seen Businesses have to close their doors, doesn't mean those Businesses will never reopen again. It may be a new owner, but if there is a need in the market, someone will take the opportunity to fill the position.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2022 6:25:59 GMT 12
This David Seymour article sums up the direction forward based on Labours PPP ( piss poor performance) so far. www.magic.co.nz/home/news/2021/12/opinion--the-cost-of-labour-and-the-price-we-re-all-paying---dav.htmlG, you may be correct but anything they do needs to be an improvement for the real issues (health , law, ...) And not minorities bullshit dreams of world leadership crap. The cost of government is a huge concern it's like the corner dairy owner having 500 back office staff juggling the numbers, the regs, the analysis, the health and safety, and the spin... And your paying for it with your daily purchase of a litre of milk @$ 75.99... The nitty gritty has been sacrificed by the weirdo non productive socialist agenda... And we the Worker are paying... That's |
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Post by dutyfree on Jan 11, 2022 8:01:09 GMT 12
The main reason we have seen higher GDP is that the economy has been pumped full of cash (taken from future tax payers) and low interest rates. We have a massive asset bubble across housing, cars boats etc.
We and for example the USA are now seeing the consequences of excess demand and constricted supply i.e. inflation. This will now compound into already inflating costs, wages and salaries, fuel etc. Already there are articles about how employees want more money, this will escalate.
Unfortunately we are likely to head into a requirement for fiscal restraint and tighter monetary policy settings. Our current RB boss, Adrian does not have the stomach for the harder choices that are necessary to compensate for a free spending government. Just wait until next year and see how many lollies Labour start throwing around to try and win the election.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2022 8:42:06 GMT 12
The main reason we have seen higher GDP is that the economy has been pumped full of cash (taken from future tax payers) and low interest rates. We have a massive asset bubble across housing, cars boats etc. We and for example the USA are now seeing the consequences of excess demand and constricted supply i.e. inflation. This will now compound into already inflating costs, wages and salaries, fuel etc. Already there are articles about how employees want more money, this will escalate. Unfortunately we are likely to head into a requirement for fiscal restraint and tighter monetary policy settings. Our current RB boss, Adrian does not have the stomach for the harder choices that are necessary to compensate for a free spending government. Just wait until next year and see how many lollies Labour start throwing around to try and win the election. scary truth that. I heard that kiwis spend 8 billion PA on overseas travel.. which has been transferred, over the last 2years, to local spending on all kinds of crap that will end up flooding the market when they grow bored of thier new toys. (caravanning, fizz boating etc ) Watch the prices rise, the market be full of sellers, no buyers, taxes rise, .... A perfect storm that will favour the savers and punish all those spenders that borrowed ship loads to buy unnecessary ego centric crap. The rich won't give a rats. The poor benefit bludgers will carry on oblivious as Jacindaland Topps up these losers annually... Despite Rome burning And the sandwich class keeps forking out hard earned dosh to fix other people's laziness/ greed That's a socialist sandwich right there! White bread on the bottom, ciabatta top, and corn beef "grunting it" in the middle. |
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Post by grounded on Jan 11, 2022 10:39:43 GMT 12
Yes and No.
GDP or Gross Domestic Product, is defined as the total market value of all final goods and services produced within a country in a given period.
It includes private and public consumption, private and public investment, and exports less imports.
It does not take into consideration cash put back into the Economy as such. But if that cash aided in a Business making a profit, then yes that is related to GDP.
However, there will be tax to pay on that profit and that tax will not be seen by the Gvt till (in theory) the 7th of Feb the following year.
So no, the higher than expected GDP did not come about from the Gvt pouring money into the Economy. The economy performed better the year before. That is before Covid was a glint in the eye of the Bat with the runny nose.
Reasons for the better tax take was due to seveal reasons. One was IRD's new computer system. Another was many loopholes being closed up. And the rest was just growth. Overseas trade has increased and will continue to increase as other Countries remove tarrifs and so on.
Yes it is correct that throwing money into an economy can cause inflation to spike. But this time, inflation has spiked for many other reasons. Shipping costs and supply issues have increased product costs dramatically. Mortgages for Homes over a million mean People need to earn much more to pay the mortgage and still have McD's and KFC and the Boat and Jetski. Labour is in short supply, so Employers are having to pay much better to get and retain staff. And with the increases in Wages and Salaries, there is an increase in consumerism, so our GDP increases. And all that extra earning results in a higher GDP and yes, inflation and the RB then steps in a raises Interest to curb that spending and ..................
IT all goes "pear shape" is when we have a shrinking economy and yet still have all the inflationary issues. People can't meet Mortgage payments etc and house prices fall and inflation rises and people go the the wall and we see mortgagee sales and so on and that is all bad stuff.
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Post by dutyfree on Jan 11, 2022 11:32:07 GMT 12
I was not talking about tax take. I wont quote my professional skill set but lets just say it might include economics.
Where do you think the injected cash went, savings? Why cant you get a tradie? Building stuff, value add etc???
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Post by Cantab on Jan 11, 2022 11:52:00 GMT 12
I was not talking about tax take. I wont quote my professional skill set but lets just say it might include economics. Where do you think the injected cash went, savings? Why cant you get a tradie? Building stuff, value add etc??? Your debating with a double tradie, epidemiologist, virologist. , economist, bus driver. You haven't got a chance. Labour is making a pretty good show of showing all those basic economic theories are right, while trying to show all the old disproven ones were actually OK. |
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Post by grounded on Jan 12, 2022 3:57:33 GMT 12
Business owner dude and so you forgot the qualification I got in Economics and Business studies.  What is wrong with you people?? Seriously. Dutyfree, back during the first lockdown, the question was thrown at the Gvt about how are they going to pay for all the debt they are clocking up. The reply by Andrew Little and Grant Robertson was that they had received a higher than expected Tax take due to a much better performing Economy than was expected. They gave several reasons why that tax take was better than expected. You said that GDP was higher because of all the money pumped into the economy. I was showing you that strong GDP does not produce a return to the Gvt till the following year at least. So the money being poured into the economy was not the cause to the current growth of GDP. I will acknowledge however, the GDP was probably strengthened due to National pouring money into the economy with Earthquake reconstruction. |
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Post by dutyfree on Jan 12, 2022 8:56:03 GMT 12
GDP is not tax, it is a measure of economic output. GDP is not calculated from tax take. You are conflating the governments financial accounts with the country's national economic accounts. They are not the same thing. Former macro-economist.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2022 9:48:27 GMT 12
Duudes, get the microscope of your small slongs FFS!
You're taking across each other like a labour party caucus discussing the pros and cons of 1+1 = 3!
GDP is a number at the bottom of a sheet of paper that is based in a manipulation if numbers plucked from the fiscal wonderland of your cuntries making crap, servicing said crap, and what shit you flicked overseas v what crap you brought from other countries.
It's like you looking at your household fiscal's and then doing this calculation ..
Money we made + interest we earned locally - all the shit we wasted our dosh on +/- any crap we brought from china or sold to uncle Fa'a in samoa = GDP
Now, you meat heads, G was trying to say.. . If GDP is high then The Govts tax theft is high but they don't see a lot of that until later.
Got it 👍
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2022 10:00:35 GMT 12
But GDP is rought with issues ..
GDP deals in aggregates; GDP per capita in averages. In an age where a huge cause of social dislocation is inequality, GDP has nothing to say about distribution. Averages are misleading. Medians are better than means. A rise in average GDP could actually be retrograde, if it leaves 99% of people resentful at how the 1% is making good
In general, GDP measures only cash transactions. In Europe that includes heroin and prostitution. However, volunteer work, housework or looking after an ageing relative count for nothing. GDP has skewed priorities.
In poor countries, the informal sector is practically invisible to GDP. Yet in much of the world, the informal economy counts for most. Monitoring economic activity from space, through satellite images of nightlights, might be more accurate than on-the-ground GDP, academic studies have found
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Post by grounded on Jan 12, 2022 11:36:33 GMT 12
100% spot on schooner. Thank-you.
Yes, but everything to do with economics is rought with issues. It's much like that game of Wackamole.
Over all, GDP is still the Light in the Room. The brighter it glows, the happier everyone is.
GDP is supposed to cover everything. Whether it does or not is another story. In a perfect World, the G = Gross. That is supposed to mean everything. Even Prostitution provides tax, technically anyway.
When it comes to Economy and economists, GDP gives them all a heads up for the coming year/s.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2022 12:50:09 GMT 12
GDP is not a measure of “wealth” at all. It is a measure of income. It is a backward-looking “flow” measure that tells you the value of goods and services produced in a given period in the past. It tells you nothing about whether you can produce the same amount again next year. For that, you need a balance sheet - a measure of wealth. Companies have balance sheets as well as income statements. Nations don’t.
When Nigeria was busy selling high-priced oil to the world before the price crash, its GDP was soaring. But its wealth was falling. Oil deposits were used up, but cash was not reinvested in human, physical and technological capacities to ensure future income. Only wealth accounts could have drawn attention to that.
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