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Post by OLD ROPE 👀 on Mar 22, 2022 7:51:12 GMT 12
If they do, it will be entirely ineffective, and lead to more regulations completely unrelated to what caused this tragedy. But I am thinking the charter fishing industry will be in for something. The last major tragedy was the charter boat crossing the Kaipara bar. What was the toll on that one, 7? Exactly . This skipper took a chance on getting to the three kings for a fish and then Back to cover ( lee of North cape) before the "well signposted" front kicked in. This front was on windy on Wednesday - Thursday showing it would play out as it did. Every good seaman would have said NO!... then looked at the iso bars closing up and the barometer dropping and gone No NO! Money and big fish overcome saftey and postponement. Water temp over 20. Good for a longer survival time. |
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Post by em on Mar 22, 2022 8:14:00 GMT 12
Exactly . This skipper took a chance on getting to the three kings for a fish and then Back to cover ( lee of North cape) before the "well signposted" front kicked in. This front was on windy on Wednesday - Thursday showing it would play out as it did. Every good seaman would have said NO!... then looked at the iso bars closing up and the barometer dropping and gone No NO! Money and big fish overcome saftey and postponement. Water temp over 20. Good for a longer survival time. Fatigue will have played a part . I have done a couple of multi day Charters , your sleep routine is buggered up by the excitement of it all and the long passage . Lots of alcohol usually gets consumed adding to the lack of sleep , usually you are fighting bloody big fish in a boat that’s rocking like a bastard . On the way home you are totally shagged and not really up for a swim in massive swells , torrential rain and a gale at dusk . |
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Post by OLD ROPE 👀 on Mar 22, 2022 10:43:56 GMT 12
These fishing launch and pleasure boat disasters highlight a couple of very interesting points.
1. The value of good design good construction.
Round the world sailors in fragile carbon fibre yachts go hunting for bad weather, the more the wind is behind the beam and the bigger the waves the better, yet fishing boats shelter from this weather - why?.
A race yacht is light well-proportioned with a keel for stability and a long Rudder for control.
"If one person on a flimsy fibreglass surfboard can surf "with control" down a 40 foot wave, without a rudder, it says a lot about launch design doesn't it!.
Fishing boats predominantly are wide flat vessels with no ballast, except the motor, and small rudders...
Racing yachts are engineered to a fine degree and constructed with the latest technology.
Fishing boats are glorified home built boats built to a vibe built for capacity and little consideration for control, stability or safety.
Summary ...
If we consider the aforementioned we soon see that the disasters start at the design and construction stage. Poor decisions made at the design stage, based on monetary costs etcetera cause these disasters.
This boat was always going to end up in a situation where it would broach and break in half.
I note with interest that many launch designers do not design yachts I wonder why. Maybe yacht designers should design launches.
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Post by Fogg on Mar 22, 2022 11:03:45 GMT 12
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2022 11:35:43 GMT 12
Nice Post Fuzzy.
No can of worms there. Just logic.
A good mate, and great sailor once told me it cost more ( over a boats lifecycle) to build a badly designed and constructed boat than a good one.
Just watch those Lobster and Crab dudes in TV
They are organized disasters doing the same dumb things, with the same dumb processes and equipment year after year.
How they are not strung up?... God knows!
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Post by armchairadmiral on Mar 22, 2022 12:17:59 GMT 12
Whoa guys....we don't know what happened. Only media reports and we know how reliable they are. One report I heard focused on whether they were all wearing lifejackets . FFS
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Post by ComfortZone on Mar 22, 2022 12:25:33 GMT 12
Round the world sailors in fragile carbon fibre yachts go hunting for bad weather, the more the wind is behind the beam and the bigger the waves the better, yet fishing boats shelter from this weather - why?. I note with interest that many launch designers do not design yachts I wonder why. Maybe yacht designers should design launches. Actually they don't look for extreme weather, they want 20-25kts with a good angle and the seas not too big, allows them to keep up high averages without too many control issues or risk of damage. They like to get on the front of a low and get pushed along by it. Most launches in NZ have been designed by yacht designers, eg Jim Young, Frank Pelin, John Spencer, John Lidgard, Bob Salthouse, Chris Robertson, and on the multi side Ron Given, Malcolm Tennant and Roger Hill likewise. Bill Upfold did his time at Lidgards and learnt design from John. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2022 12:34:59 GMT 12
Whoa guys....we don't know what happened. Only media reports and we know how reliable they are. One report I heard focused on whether they were all wearing lifejackets . FFS disagree. Every time this happens the facts come out and align with our grounded assumptions. I remember the crew.org thread on the bar crossing incident a few years ago .. we/ they were right. This is a clear case of skipper responsibility.... Whether it's seamanship, equipment, navigation, weather analysis,saftey mitigation, Engine failure, boat choice, decisions made, etc.... ...it all leads back to the Skipper. It always is Does It will be found, as they always are, that the Skipper made bad choices. Luck Doesn't come in to it if you Make smart decisions, prepare well, and have back up plans. That why most sailors have very little problems and most fishing boat/fizz boat owners have a lot more. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2022 12:40:00 GMT 12
Round the world sailors in fragile carbon fibre yachts go hunting for bad weather, the more the wind is behind the beam and the bigger the waves the better, yet fishing boats shelter from this weather - why?. I note with interest that many launch designers do not design yachts I wonder why. Maybe yacht designers should design launches. Actually they don't look for extreme weather, they want 20-25kts with a good angle and the seas not too big, allows them to keep up high averages without too many control issues or risk of damage. They like to get on the front of a low and get pushed along by it. Most launches in NZ have been designed by yacht designers, eg Jim Young, Frank Pelin, John Spencer, John Lidgard, Bob Salthouse, Chris Robertson, and on the multi side Ron Given, Malcolm Tennant and Roger Hill likewise. Bill Upfold did his time at Lidgards and learnt design from John. true but that wasn't extreme where they rolled it. But offshore sailors aren't afraid of extreme weather. Those designers are the exception in the commercial fleet. They are pleasure craft designs and suffer no dramas unlike the fishing guys |
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Post by fish on Mar 22, 2022 12:50:35 GMT 12
Whoa guys....we don't know what happened. Only media reports and we know how reliable they are. One report I heard focused on whether they were all wearing lifejackets . FFS Agree with this sentiment. We currently have very little idea of what actually happened. Way too early to be criticizing. Sure, we can discuss and hypothesize, but I think it is not appropriate to get stuck into the skipper just yet. Moving on, the video from the rescue chopper is fascinating. Appears the cabin roof was ripped straight off. There are several guys sitting in what appears to be the cabin roof, which is floating upside down. No-one appears to be wearing LJ's. This would indicate to me something happened very quickly. The sea state looked way calmer than I was expecting. There was a swell running, but not really any wind waves / chop I don't understand where exactly they are, i.e. if this was open ocean or in a more sheltered area close to shore. When I first heard the cabin top had come off, I thought it was some sort of twaddlebollocks reported by a journo that didn't understand what was said (i.e. the cabin top came off after the ship had sunk and was breaking up). But the video shows guys sitting in the upturned cabin top... like, what the fuck? www.stuff.co.nz/national/300546519/helicopter-footage-captures-survivor-being-rescued-from-far-north-boat-tragedy |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2022 14:50:49 GMT 12
If they do, it will be entirely ineffective, and lead to more regulations completely unrelated to what caused this tragedy. But I am thinking the charter fishing industry will be in for something. The last major tragedy was the charter boat crossing the Kaipara bar. What was the toll on that one, 7? Exactly . This skipper took a chance on getting to the three kings for a fish and then Back to cover ( lee of North cape) before the "well signposted" front kicked in. This front was on windy on Wednesday - Thursday showing it would play out as it did. Every good seaman would have said NO!... then looked at the iso bars closing up and the barometer dropping and gone No NO! Money and big fish overcome saftey and postponement. Been locked down/out last 2yrs. Maybe lets make some coin?? By all accounts very capable vessel and crew. |
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Post by OLD ROPE 👀 on Mar 22, 2022 15:50:36 GMT 12
Exactly . This skipper took a chance on getting to the three kings for a fish and then Back to cover ( lee of North cape) before the "well signposted" front kicked in. This front was on windy on Wednesday - Thursday showing it would play out as it did. Every good seaman would have said NO!... then looked at the iso bars closing up and the barometer dropping and gone No NO! Money and big fish overcome saftey and postponement. Been locked down/out last 2yrs. Maybe lets make some coin?? By all accounts very capable vessel and crew. come on guys get off the fence we all know the skipper is responsible. No matter what! As skippers ourselves we know it all is on an our plate when the shit hits the fan that's why we're called skipper. We are responsible! Some of you guys are a bit hypercritical and starting to sound like Jabcinda... Say nothing, it's under investigation, calling for a enquiry... I'll make the captains call right now The skipper, his systems, processes, maintenance,and decisions... were found wanting or were short cutted for 3 probable reasons. 1. Profit 2. Ego 3. Performance pressure / big fish "catching" reputation. The causes, other than sabotage, are all the skippers responsibility. Good skippers know when to say No! |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2022 16:16:01 GMT 12
We need to wait and see what MNZ comes up with. The media just post stories to sensualise the story.
The TV say the man at Manganui is the owner of the hotel.wrong he isnt,media said boat broke in 1/2,need to wait and see.
Whats going to help is the skipper is alive and will be able to tell the truth.
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Post by Cantab on Mar 22, 2022 16:31:33 GMT 12
I'd been watching the forecast for the Bay of Islands real close all last week, I use Predict Wind tables and Windy Pictures to get the most models and variations, trying to decide weather to stay on yacht for the weekend as usual. its a long drive back home each time I pick up my son and far nicer to stay up in the Bay.
It would have been one of the hardest weekends to get consensus on all year, when was the front going to hit, how strong and what direction. it wasn't really a front more of a funny loop in the isobars, the models all shifted quite a bit on what was going to happen Saturday night / Sunday all week and even on Saturday.
We ended up coming in and driving home Saturday night and going back up Sunday. What sealed it was Saturday afternoon, expected nice steady 12 - 15 NE and a good sailing day. Friday night was supposed to be steady E Ne, soon as dark hit it went NW and then SW by morning. Saturday I cleaned the Hull and went out for a sail, good breeze, even put a reef in on the way out past red head. On the way back the breeze dropped to 3 - 6 knots according to the radio, I thought we had about 5 if lucky. Heading towards the anchorage I had a bad gut feeling and kept checking the forecasts, asked my son about how he felt anchoring during the forecast gale, we were ok with that and had a nice spot lined up and had done it before. What made me change my mind was the last 24hrs, wrong wind direction wrong speed, what if they got the gale wrong and it was NW and Over 50, like it was a couple of weeks back.
When we got back up there Sunday it had all gone, would have been a nice day out. Will never know about Saturday night.
What I'm trying to say is that it was probably a pretty hard call whether to seek shelter, stay put or just come home for the fishermen. To me it really didn't look that bad until the last minute and even then it took the gut feeling to make the call.
Hats off to the Rescue Team, that wouldn't have happened in many other places in the world.
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Post by Fogg on Mar 22, 2022 17:12:10 GMT 12
You’re right that it wasn’t as black & white as we’d all like to think especially when it comes to weather. And no doubt the investigation will show the skipper was considering multiple scenarios.
But I guess the bottom line is that given his role and the situation the stakes were much higher than you and your son contemplating an overnight anchorage. In other words the worst case scenario for you would have been an uncomfortable night at anchor but for him, well, look what happened.
So whilst you were both facing the same uncertainty regarding weather, the higher stakes for him getting it wrong would have ideally led to a different decision.
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