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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2022 14:28:52 GMT 12
Wasn’t it a couple of years ago when that Bavaria 47 Ocean (?) had its large saloon windows smashed in by a wave and the boat sank with loss of life. All quite close to the coast if I recall? yes, but this is sailing site, so we must only have a sailing positive comments  Plus we have expert boat designers and armchair experts. Lets not remember the Fastnet, Sydney hobart, and Queens Birthday storm etc. all the fishing charters I've been on- very few people go into the cabin when the boats underway the usually in the cockpit drinking booze, chewing the fat, and some are filleting the fish on the way back. |
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Post by fish on Mar 23, 2022 14:47:33 GMT 12
yes, but this is sailing site, so we must only have a sailing positive comments  Plus we have expert boat designers and armchair experts. Lets not remember the Fastnet, Sydney hobart, and Queens Birthday storm etc. all the fishing charters I've been on- very few people go into the cabin when the boats underway the usually in the cockpit drinking booze, chewing the fat, and some are filleting the fish on the way back. I would agree on the typical trip, but this was a multi-day trip (5 nights?) so I would have expected people to have bunks and sleep in them on occassion. If there was no fishing action, the trip back may have been a good time to catch a nap. Very good point on the boozing though. Being boozed AND in the water is near suicidal. All of your physiological responses, heat retention, respiration etc are stuffed. I'd be impressed if anyone had the stamina to hit the source after 5 days of hitting the source and hard fishing, while punching into narly seas on the way home. But the point about drinking culture on fishing charters is relevant. It would be interesting if this turns out to be a factor for mortality in the water. Whilst I'm thinking I'd probably have a nap on a return voyage like that, it is equally possible (and many of my mates) would sit down, play cards and drink whisky... I certainly have in a past life. |
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Post by ComfortZone on Mar 23, 2022 14:53:50 GMT 12
yes, but this is sailing site, so we must only have a sailing positive comments Plus we have expert boat designers and armchair experts. Lets not remember the Fastnet, Sydney hobart, and Queens Birthday storm etc. all the fishing charters I've been on- very few people go into the cabin when the boats underway the usually in the cockpit drinking booze, chewing the fat, and some are filleting the fish on the way back. given the weather they were in I would think most of the passengers would have been in their bunks or feeding the fish |
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Post by em on Mar 23, 2022 15:03:16 GMT 12
There's a slight difference between all your examples and this case. One skipper is getting paid to keep you safe The others (SH) have crew that "buy" into the danger with a knowledge that the Skipper and boat are not commercial operators. It's not so different anymore, skippers of pleasure boats are also held to have a duty of care to the crew. Remember the Platino tragedy, the authorities tried to bring manslaughter charges against the skipper but did not eventually proceed due to lots of behind the scenes lawyering, helped by the fact the skipper was a member of the Todd family so money for QC's was not a problemCommercial are supposed to be ticketed and held to a higher standard. And you can be sure this will occur with the Enchanter's skipper, particularly given the possible "discrepancies" in the status of the charter operation. MNZ, Worksafe and Police will be all over this like a rashI also think there will be some lessons learned about the boat, not its basic design, which I know from its WA crayfishing origins is very sound, but rather the modifications with that raised cabin and enclosed flybridge. These mods will have affected windage/stability and unlikely to have been engineered to withstand the force of a heavy breaking sea. If you have read Sebastion Junger's book "Perfect Storm" one of the issues identified with the Andrea Gael was that there had been superstructure modifications which would have reduced her stability. Of course the actual reason for her foundering is unknown, all is conjecture. Boat was an Erwin Haag design . Old school NZ designer and boat was probably built Long before conservatories became de rigueur on top of launches |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2022 15:09:07 GMT 12
I would say time to lock the discussion.Most have no fucken idea on the charter operator,booze trip,fuck sake its a serious loss of life. Its a serious trip to the kings and certainly no pinic cruise.
So the fastnet lost all pissed?? Sydney to hobart ,pissed
All pure speculation
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Post by OLD ROPE 👀 on Mar 23, 2022 15:32:18 GMT 12
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2022 15:47:51 GMT 12
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Post by Admin on Mar 23, 2022 16:25:04 GMT 12
There’s plenty of speculation here - including by me - but nothing that isn’t being said in fishing club bars all over the country right now.
Certainly not close to a lockable thread.
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Post by fish on Mar 23, 2022 17:11:30 GMT 12
I would say time to lock the discussion.Most have no fucken idea on the charter operator,booze trip,fuck sake its a serious loss of life. Its a serious trip to the kings and certainly no pinic cruise. So the fastnet lost all pissed?? Sydney to hobart ,pissed All pure speculation Wrong forum. If you want threads that are blown up as soon as someone disagrees with someone else, go to that other place. If you think there is wonton speculation about completely relevant things, and that is disrespectful given the gravity of this incident, then say "I think this wonton speculation is completely irrelevant, and given the tragic loss of life, I consider it disrespectful" i.e. say what you think. You are allowed to here ;-) I do think that some of the guessing and knee-jerk criticism of the skipper is unwarranted, but I think I've communicated that in previous posts. On the same token, I don't think a response to your post calling you names (Jabcinda) is particularly constructive. It may appear DuzzyFuck as some kind of Freidan Obsession and wants to mention her name as often as possible, in inappropriate situations. FuzzyDuck, please, get over her, we don't want to hear her name constantly, especially in the marine section. Either that or get one of those inflatable dolls, stick a cardboard cut out of Jabcinda's face on it, and get whatever you need to out of your system. But please don't tell us about it. |
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Post by fish on Mar 23, 2022 17:31:57 GMT 12
This article clears up some of our speculation. Confirms the primary theory for what happened, rogue wave leading to capsize. Interestingly, they state the conditions weren't that bad, and one of the party went outside to do some trolling. At least one was sleeping in a bunk. Moving forward, I think most of the interest will be in the modifications of the boat, around flybridge and structure up high. Now, if this boat is Maritime NZ approved (I don't know the names of the specific legal mechanisms) and is in survey, is it the skippers fault, or the approving authority (MNZ), or is it just a freak accident? A survivor of the Enchanter fishing charter tragedy has told family and friends the vessel was struck side on by a “freak wave” and “nobody was to blame” for the incident that claimed the lives of five Waikato men. Blair Ensor reports. About 8pm on Sunday, charter fishing vessel Enchanter was about 15 minutes away from dropping anchor in the Far North. It had been a relatively successful trip to the Three Kings, a group of islands about 55 kilometres northwest of the northern tip of New Zealand. Those onboard had caught plenty of kingfish, but their main target, a marlin, had proved elusive. Chickens were cooking in an oven. At least one person was below deck sleeping. The weather outside wasn’t too bad and one of the keen fishermen onboard the five-day charter thought he’d go and throw a line out the back and do some trolling. But as he turned around he was confronted by the sight of a rogue wave. There was no time to warn anyone before a wall of water slammed into the side of the 17-metre vessel, ripping its wheelhouse off and causing it to capsize. www.stuff.co.nz/national/128144799/nobody-to-blame-enchanter-survivor-says-charter-boat-hit-by-freak-wave |
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Post by GO30 on Mar 23, 2022 17:44:06 GMT 12
Either that or get one of those inflatable dolls, stick a cardboard cut out of Jabcinda's face on it, and get whatever you need to out of your system. But please don't tell us about it. OK now that's a sentence that can lock a thread. I hope he doesn't use drawing pins, he may find the experience somewhat deflating.
When something like this tragedy happens it is news and if you are into boating it is big news that will cross everyone's mind to some degree. Sure we have to be careful not to say 'It was the 3rd Dohicky that let go after Trev got pissed and tried to mount it' or things like that as none of us know what happened at the time. The survivors are most likely still trying to process all that happened.
But as long as we chat about it in a 'general sense' we all can learn stuff from it or become more aware of an aspect that we may use ourselves later on to maybe prevent the same thing repeating itself.
MNZ will pull this incident apart in detail, which may even include going out there in an effort to replicate the situation. They get into it and with similar levels of deep sussing very much like Aircraft investigations do. With so many survivors inc the crew MNZ should be able to pin this one down to a reasonable, at least, degree of accuracy. Even I've had calls from investigators about aspects of incident in the past, things like loads and best practice use sort of stuff.
I have a mate who runs charter boats. The reason we have not seen more carnage in the cruising yacht fleet is 100% pure dumb luck. The number of times he gets called out to get boats of beaches, reefs and other crazy stuff is gobsmacking. In the peak of the season it is a weekly thing. They even get calls along the lines of 'I hit the bottom so we all got off and have come back on the ferry. We've finished the charter'. He's then left to find and recover the boat, it's crazy stuff.
Considering the numbers of commercial fishos do verses the number chartered yachts would do, would very easily say commercial charters will see more incidents as they do a shit load more miles with more people into more twitchy type locations that charter yachts do.
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Post by GO30 on Mar 23, 2022 18:02:33 GMT 12
Moving forward, I think most of the interest will be in the modifications of the boat, around flybridge and structure up high. Now, if this boat is Maritime NZ approved (I don't know the names of the specific legal mechanisms) and is in survey, is it the skippers fault, or the approving authority (MNZ), or is it just a freak accident? In MNZ Survey is the term they tend to use.
With the visibility and trips she does I very much doubt this boat would have been a dark boat i.e. lives in the shadows where MNZ can't see them.
When going in to Survey she would have been checked structurally. But if she came in to survey after being built a lot of that would have been off plans and just using eyes. As we all know plans and eyes will show a lot but far from all. But then the Surveyors are experienced in getting an over all feel i.e. if the boat isn't well maintained they look harder and deeper as it can indicate lazy skipper/owner and lazy often means shortcuts. Just like when YNZ Inspectors are asking you seemingly innocent questions as they look over your craft, those questions are sussing to see if you know the shit you need to or are you just good at following lists of gear you need.
From all I've heard this boat wasn't dark and she was well looked after. But any mods will be looked at harder now. If they find issues they will look for the same in the rest of the fleet, again just like aircraft.
As often as I do refer to MNZ as 'Muppets NZ' (which I can justify in certain areas of how they operate) I do believe they do these investigation very well and very fairly so in time we'll get a good run down on how it all panned out.
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Post by OLD ROPE 👀 on Mar 23, 2022 19:39:48 GMT 12
I would say time to lock the discussion.Most have no fucken idea on the charter operator,booze trip,fuck sake its a serious loss of life. Its a serious trip to the kings and certainly no pinic cruise. So the fastnet lost all pissed?? Sydney to hobart ,pissed All pure speculation Wrong forum. If you want threads that are blown up as soon as someone disagrees with someone else, go to that other place. If you think there is wonton speculation about completely relevant things, and that is disrespectful given the gravity of this incident, then say "I think this wonton speculation is completely irrelevant, and given the tragic loss of life, I consider it disrespectful" i.e. say what you think. You are allowed to here ;-) I do think that some of the guessing and knee-jerk criticism of the skipper is unwarranted, but I think I've communicated that in previous posts. On the same token, I don't think a response to your post calling you names (Jabcinda) is particularly constructive. It may appear DuzzyFuck as some kind of Freidan Obsession and wants to mention her name as often as possible, in inappropriate situations. FuzzyDuck, please, get over her, we don't want to hear her name constantly, especially in the marine section. Either that or get one of those inflatable dolls, stick a cardboard cut out of Jabcinda's face on it, and get whatever you need to out of your system. But please don't tell us about it. fair cop on the name calling. Sorry HT... it was the lowest of blows to HT. It was tongue in cheek though. Fish, yes its true I wanted to relate every bad / dumb comment to Jacinda. I hate her with a passion. But in my defense I will say - calling for a thread lock is not freedom of speech and stops open and diverse thought/ comments from coming out and building a " group dynamic" and holistic understanding of what might have happened. Between us all we have put forward many ideas and covered off many scenarios. What's wrong with that in a world of Facebook, twitter and Arderns spin ( had to get that in 😜) Now where's the B.U.D. |
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Post by dutyfree on Mar 23, 2022 19:51:35 GMT 12
Very well known and respected skipper, three boat operation, definitely not a fly by nighter. Does not mean dumb shit can't happen.
Does not mean that mother nature can't tell you to f-off.
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Post by em on Mar 23, 2022 20:25:05 GMT 12
Kind of makes sense though ….any two story tiny home is gonna get washed away by a 3 metre plus broadside no matter how well it’s fixed to the deck . I can’t think of any way around making it stronger without another part of the boat fail , like the hull deck join or tearing bulkheads out . Will be interesting to see if there is any recommendations or new rules for multi-storey cabin structures .
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Plus we have expert boat designers and armchair experts. Lets not remember the Fastnet, Sydney hobart, and Queens Birthday storm etc.
Plus we have expert boat designers and armchair experts. Lets not remember the Fastnet, Sydney hobart, and Queens Birthday storm etc.
