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Post by GO30 on May 11, 2022 14:55:17 GMT 12
What were you using before you went to vivid? and is it still available? And how is the fanny worm going in that western area of Westhaven, if there is no other biological growth? Whotsit No5 I'm told. It was working well but we ran out of it i.e. cleaned it out of existence over 2 seasons.
Up in the Western corner even the Fanny worm has decided to call it quits. But it;s still covers most of Westhaven as I noticed it has done in Bayswater also. Bayswaters water is so so SO much cleaner than Westhavens, you don't hop out of Bayswaters feeling like you've had a chemical scrub.
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Post by em on May 11, 2022 18:35:27 GMT 12
How the hell did you get 'em' as a moniker when your name is Joe Rogan? He's a ivermectin conspiracy theory fan I believe but then a study out very recently suggests his 'conspiracy theory' may in fact be a tad accurate. We were just talking about how many conspiracy theories there were 6 months ago that are now facts today...but we digress....
That is very interesting fella and no you shouldn't be sharing it nor should I share the results of a trial that I won't be doing on my boat not shortly using the stuff I won't be talking to a man about after lunch
'containing 0.1% (w/v)', anyone know what that means in real measurements?
OK so now a hour or 3 later and it turns out I can't buy ivermectin from the farm shops as it is a drug so you need a Vet. Do we know of any tame or bribable Vets?
I am more than happy to be the guinea pig...or one of my inspecting boats will be
Ah bugger I’m pretty sure it was “over the counter “ before Covid and joe Roganjosh
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Post by fish on May 11, 2022 19:39:22 GMT 12
'containing 0.1% (w/v)', anyone know what that means in real measurements?
w/v is weight to volume, so x kg's of ivermectin per y litre of AF. Will need to work out if the units are consistent. Probably grams / litre, or kg / m3 (which gives the same concentration, just in different units). If I've got my numbers write (and I may not, cause the kids are jabbering in my ear) 0.1% would be 1 gram ivermectin per 1 litre of antifoul. Sounds very low. Maybe I've lost a decimal point. 10 grams per litre sounds better.
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Post by GO30 on May 13, 2022 12:07:02 GMT 12
I'm going to try the cheeky prick technique and just ask some chemists for the stuff using the 'not for human consumption' angle and see what happens.
I'll probably be chatting to a vet later next week so I'll suss that as an option as well. A rural vet, it doesn't sound like a substance city vets would have a big call for.
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Post by fish on May 13, 2022 13:22:57 GMT 12
I'm going to try the cheeky prick technique and just ask some chemists for the stuff using the 'not for human consumption' angle and see what happens. I'll probably be chatting to a vet later next week so I'll suss that as an option as well. A rural vet, it doesn't sound like a substance city vets would have a big call for. Can't you just buy it at RD1 by the barrel load? Isn't it cow drench? Or have Labour made the farmers life more difficult by banning that in fear someone uses it to actually recover from covid with it? PS - no self respecting cattle baron doesn't have a vet on retainer with a direct 24/7 speed dial call out line. If you are going to achieve any status in the back blocks of Dargaville, you'll need to sort that out ;-)
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Post by em on May 14, 2022 8:16:23 GMT 12
I'm going to try the cheeky prick technique and just ask some chemists for the stuff using the 'not for human consumption' angle and see what happens. I'll probably be chatting to a vet later next week so I'll suss that as an option as well. A rural vet, it doesn't sound like a substance city vets would have a big call for. Can't you just buy it at RD1 by the barrel load? Isn't it cow drench? Or have Labour made the farmers life more difficult by banning that in fear someone uses it to actually recover from covid with it? PS - no self respecting cattle baron doesn't have a vet on retainer with a direct 24/7 speed dial call out line. If you are going to achieve any status in the back blocks of Dargaville, you'll need to sort that out ;-) It’s all been pulled off the shelves apart from a few combination drenches . You now have to buy it through the vet which should be easy enough …just say your reptile has a terrible worm infestation
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Post by GO30 on May 14, 2022 11:04:11 GMT 12
Can't you just buy it at RD1 by the barrel load? Isn't it cow drench? Or have Labour made the farmers life more difficult by banning that in fear someone uses it to actually recover from covid with it? PS - no self respecting cattle baron doesn't have a vet on retainer with a direct 24/7 speed dial call out line. If you are going to achieve any status in the back blocks of Dargaville, you'll need to sort that out ;-) It’s all been pulled off the shelves apart from a few combination drenches . You now have to buy it through the vet which should be easy enough …just say your reptile has a terrible worm infestation More for horses I believe. And No cows and horses are different
We currently only have 19 self propelled assorted mongrol lawn mowers, (left overs from the old dairy heard and calfs from) including what appears to be about a 2 year old good looking bull that just turned up in the mob wee while ago, not sure 3exactly when. The heard has free range of 150 acres that has some native bush patches so it's easy for some not to be seen for quite a while. None of the neighbours are missing any so we're all buggered as to where it has come from. But it has been having a shagadellic time during it's stay which means a lady up north who wanted more calf's just brought 4 were to stay heifers that are now somewhat pregnant. Jerseys we wanted gone so it was a 'by the cow and get a free pre-installed calf' sale, a win-win. So we're more just a hobbyist until this time next week when I hope to purchase a nice pile of weaners, 50 odd would work, to start my journey in earnest. Once I get my sperm out of Scotland and into a few local ladies then I think I'll be able to claim Cattle Baron status. I may also be able to claim to have a breed unique to NZ, if not the entire world, which if things go well on the other side that will match the NZ uniqueness of our plantings.
You maybe watching the genesis of a whole new NZ niche export industry...... or possibly some dumbarse having fun with toys and making a hell of a shambles while doing so. I'd like to think the former but the later is still very much in play
An em is spot on, all been pulled and even some of the drenches have been due to it being a ingredient. I was told last week that was partially due to the Govt have a genuine fear someone would get covid then start guzzling horse drench. I'd have left it on the shelves, surly if that did happen all it would mean is society would become generally smarter.
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Post by fish on May 14, 2022 13:44:40 GMT 12
It’s all been pulled off the shelves apart from a few combination drenches . You now have to buy it through the vet which should be easy enough …just say your reptile has a terrible worm infestation More for horses I believe. And No cows and horses are different Hay, I know all about this cattle baron mallarky. If you plant the cows too close together, they don't grow to well. Seriously, 19 is the magic number for steers in a paddock. If you have more than that they get too hierarchical and spend the whole time fitting instead of sitting on their arse getting fat. The only other option is to get a donkey. Apparently they go nuts and berate the steers when they start fighting. True facts. I did my graduate programme at a meatworks. I am a qualified expert at killing cows and cutting them up. I can look at a cow in a paddock and identify each meat cut, and give you a good idea of the quality of the meat by looking at the cow. I even had the honour of being in charge of cooking steak samples for the marketing team when they would bring through buyers from offshore. I'd have to find the best box of ribeye in the entire coolstore, which involved lots and lots of sampling... A mate of mine's parents owned a dairy farm, back in the day when families owned farms and 120 cows was economic. While I understood it was normal for these 'family farms' to inseminate their own herd, we always thought it a bit odd the heifers would line up at the father's bedroom door...
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Post by em on May 14, 2022 21:04:08 GMT 12
More for horses I believe. And No cows and horses are different Hay, I know all about this cattle baron mallarky. If you plant the cows too close together, they don't grow to well. Seriously, 19 is the magic number for steers in a paddock. If you have more than that they get too hierarchical and spend the whole time fitting instead of sitting on their arse getting fat. The only other option is to get a donkey. Apparently they go nuts and berate the steers when they start fighting. True facts. I did my graduate programme at a meatworks. I am a qualified expert at killing cows and cutting them up. I can look at a cow in a paddock and identify each meat cut, and give you a good idea of the quality of the meat by looking at the cow. I even had the honour of being in charge of cooking steak samples for the marketing team when they would bring through buyers from offshore. I'd have to find the best box of ribeye in the entire coolstore, which involved lots and lots of sampling... A mate of mine's parents owned a dairy farm, back in the day when families owned farms and 120 cows was economic. While I understood it was normal for these 'family farms' to inseminate their own herd, we always thought it a bit odd the heifers would line up at the father's bedroom door... Ok so I need you to come up and choose which lowline heifer would be best to cut up …I have one steer but he’s a piddler compared to the girls . Forgive me for selecting heifers for eating but I used to cook for a living and would follow the “steak of origin” competition and it would usually be won by cuts off of a heifer ….not very blokey cause that’s all about big bastards that grow super quick and get good returns etc
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Post by GO30 on May 15, 2022 8:59:43 GMT 12
More for horses I believe. And No cows and horses are different Hay, I know all about this cattle baron mallarky. If you plant the cows too close together, they don't grow to well. Seriously, 19 is the magic number for steers in a paddock. If you have more than that they get too hierarchical and spend the whole time fitting instead of sitting on their arse getting fat. The only other option is to get a donkey. Apparently they go nuts and berate the steers when they start fighting. True facts. I did my graduate programme at a meatworks. I am a qualified expert at killing cows and cutting them up. I can look at a cow in a paddock and identify each meat cut, and give you a good idea of the quality of the meat by looking at the cow. I even had the honour of being in charge of cooking steak samples for the marketing team when they would bring through buyers from offshore. I'd have to find the best box of ribeye in the entire coolstore, which involved lots and lots of sampling... A mate of mine's parents owned a dairy farm, back in the day when families owned farms and 120 cows was economic. While I understood it was normal for these 'family farms' to inseminate their own herd, we always thought it a bit odd the heifers would line up at the father's bedroom door... For a Sunday morning after the night before, that post is a great and funny read, thanks dude.
We'll have 50 odd to a paddock but that's not too much of a worry on our place as the paddock is around 1km long. Also we don't want to run a heard as such, the place is more about the trees and toys, so the bovines are a bit of a side hustle. Buy small, let them range for a while on a increasingly diverse range of vegetation as I deal to the paddocks, them off to the plate via the truck or the nice couple just down the road who do all the local home kill.
Interesting you talk about heifers like that em, and you're right the dude talk being about the BFO 600kg plus meat lumps to target for the good steaks. There are 2 absolute monsters next door, not just big but humongously so. Part of their breeding programme maybe, it is a big dairy operation. I think 1 or 2 of the mongrols left over we still have are shorty to become freezer fillers.
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Post by sabre on Jul 30, 2022 21:19:29 GMT 12
For the brains trust.. seems the watered down antifouling paints to day aren't a patch on only a few years ago. Understand why. BUT...what's holding up the best of the new ones.We're using hard black so that's what will go back on. Opinions from experience would be appreciated. As far as I know, there isn't any new tech that actually works. I did a fairly big study of all of my options last year, and got very excited about a posh new AF paint (very expensive) Was even phoning the technical support and the rep. The rep told my not to bother, and just go with their cheapest. I think that was Altex #5, or the commercial equivalent which was Seabreeze 3000 or something. In terms of paint on stuff, I think the EPA rules mean they have gone as far as they can go with things to control ablativeness and leach rates and stuff. The new tech options are the super smooth telfon / silicon vinyl wrap types, or copper coat (if you all copper coat new tech). The vinyl wraps have the two short comings in that they need to be used at least fortnightly, and need to go zoomy fast to get enough shear stress to knock everything off. I think minimum 9 knts, but in effect you are talking planning launch only. I use a vinyl wrap on my prop shaft, and it works very well. Even keeps the barnacles off. But so far my success rate at sticking the stuff to the shaft is 50:50 Currently I think the only way forward is to get a hard AF, and accept you will need to clean it regularly. For this reason I went with copper coat again, and invested in some Scuba gear. That said, the CC isn't doing so well this summer. Major barnacle issue. I don't think anything deals with Barnacles. I've got an idea that tin is the only thing that will, and that was banned 2 or 3 ban iterations ago. The only tech development I reckon will work would be a vinyl wrap thing with a biocide impregnated in it. Like a good proper old fashioned AF, with stuff that is actually toxic in it, but on a wrap so it doesn't leach into the environment. Haven't seen one yet, can only wait. Hey Fish you seem like the most knowlegable on coppercoat around here so I have a couple of questions for you. Can you buy it and apply it yourself or do you have to use an approved applicator? And what sort of $ for the product itselt.. enough to do a small keeler?
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Post by fish on Jul 30, 2022 22:54:40 GMT 12
Yes, you can buy it and apply it yourself. Easy job. You do need to be able to read instructions, plan a whole day of work, and read a weather forecast though ;-) It is not like painting AF. You have to do 4 coats wet on tacky, hence planning the days work. Nothing more complicated than having a watch and note book and writing down when you mixed each batch and when you finished applying it. Needs to stay dry for 3 days (we taped an 'eyebrow' around the boat to stop any rain water running off the deck, so it dripped off the tape and not down the hull. Also need to get reasonable air temp and humidity. Some people have had blistering from moisture. This was on the shady side of the lead keel for us. When we re-did it, we warmed it up a bit, heat gun or hair drier, can't remember which. Short story is to make sure all of your hull is properly dry.
My boat takes 11 units. A unit is like litre of the resin and hardner, and 2kg of copper (I think, 1 bag anyway). I can't remember how much a unit costs, maybe $200? My boat, 37 ft but narrow at 3.2m beam was a little over $2K.
Note that most of the work and a bit of cost is in the preparation. Like any painting job, its all about the prep. You need to take off ALL existing AF, and in most cases you need to apply a new epoxy tie-coat, i.e. interprotect. I think the call interprotect something different now. There is some cost in that. A little bit of cost in consumables, you need descent rollers, not the cheap foam ones - mohair is required (I think).
How much product? Well, how small is your keeler? I'd say somewhere between 5 and 8 units, so $1,000 to $1,600 (based on my boat taking 11 units) plus interprotect, rollers and consumables. Note that rollers and consumables isn't going to be any different from doing a full strip back and applying new AF, other than the need for interprotect (which you may need to do again if you were stripping back your original AF).
Top tip, the supplier offered me a 15% discount. I was um-ing and ah-ing about re-applying CC, and was openly discussing the merits of going back to traditional cheap AF with him. Then I took my time to respond to him once he sent the quote through, so he offered a discount (without me asking actually). So if you get the info and then act a bit dis-interested, you may be able to get a discount. Note that the product is imported and I got mine a year ago, so if the exchange rate has gone the wrong way the pricing might be a bit more expensive.
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Post by fish on Jul 30, 2022 23:13:46 GMT 12
If you are looking for a long term fouling protection product, this Finsulate sounds interesting. It is a wrap product that uses the same concept as kina spines to stop growth adhering to it. Life of 5 yrs for the standard stuff, or 10 yrs for the industrial stuff. No idea what it costs. I've been pondering getting an offcut and trialing it somewhere on my hull to see how it goes. I reckon with all the constraints on ingredients in paint on AF's, the way forward is variations of film or wrap applied products. This one sounds interesting, and it still works for displacement speed yachts like ours. The silicone wraps only work for planning launches. Anyone in the BoI want to try it? Apparently barnacles can't grow on it - can't adhere to anything with the kina like spines in the wrap. www.finsulate.com/en/Supplied in NZ www.parkermarinegroup.co.nz/finsulate
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Post by sabre on Jul 31, 2022 7:34:38 GMT 12
Yes, you can buy it and apply it yourself. Easy job. You do need to be able to read instructions, plan a whole day of work, and read a weather forecast though ;-) It is not like painting AF. You have to do 4 coats wet on tacky, hence planning the days work. Nothing more complicated than having a watch and note book and writing down when you mixed each batch and when you finished applying it. Needs to stay dry for 3 days (we taped an 'eyebrow' around the boat to stop any rain water running off the deck, so it dripped off the tape and not down the hull. Also need to get reasonable air temp and humidity. Some people have had blistering from moisture. This was on the shady side of the lead keel for us. When we re-did it, we warmed it up a bit, heat gun or hair drier, can't remember which. Short story is to make sure all of your hull is properly dry. My boat takes 11 units. A unit is like litre of the resin and hardner, and 2kg of copper (I think, 1 bag anyway). I can't remember how much a unit costs, maybe $200? My boat, 37 ft but narrow at 3.2m beam was a little over $2K. Note that most of the work and a bit of cost is in the preparation. Like any painting job, its all about the prep. You need to take off ALL existing AF, and in most cases you need to apply a new epoxy tie-coat, i.e. interprotect. I think the call interprotect something different now. There is some cost in that. A little bit of cost in consumables, you need descent rollers, not the cheap foam ones - mohair is required (I think). How much product? Well, how small is your keeler? I'd say somewhere between 5 and 8 units, so $1,000 to $1,600 (based on my boat taking 11 units) plus interprotect, rollers and consumables. Note that rollers and consumables isn't going to be any different from doing a full strip back and applying new AF, other than the need for interprotect (which you may need to do again if you were stripping back your original AF). Top tip, the supplier offered me a 15% discount. I was um-ing and ah-ing about re-applying CC, and was openly discussing the merits of going back to traditional cheap AF with him. Then I took my time to respond to him once he sent the quote through, so he offered a discount (without me asking actually). So if you get the info and then act a bit dis-interested, you may be able to get a discount. Note that the product is imported and I got mine a year ago, so if the exchange rate has gone the wrong way the pricing might be a bit more expensive. Thanks Fish, great info! Sounds more economical than I thought it would be. I have seen some people spray it on with many light coats.. any thoughts on spraying v rolling? I see one of the GGR boats is using CC this year. I wonder how that will go with the barnacles? That Finsulate looks interesting but given that their team of applicators do the application I suspect will be quite pricey in comparison with CC. Will certainly follow how it progresses in the real world as more boats start to use it over here.
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Post by fish on Jul 31, 2022 10:50:40 GMT 12
I've never sprayed anything, so don't know how it works. My first response would be that you can't spray it, because it is a rather thick viscous solution, and you need to keep the copper powder suspended in it. As it ages (pot life) it starts thickening. You can't thin it very much (I've never thinned it).
But also, why would you want to spray it? I can't see any advantage over rollering. You actually need to give it a burnish before you re-launch, to bring the copper particles up to the surface. So if you want an ultra smooth finish, just spend a bit more time burnishing.
On the finsulate, yeah, it does look expensive, esp needing the professional application. I'm thinking seriously about trialing it and a few other options. Get a plank or board or something to hang off my mooring pile. Put an offcut of finsulate, some of the silicone wrap stuff (use it on my prop shaft) maybe some copper coat if I can get a small enough quantity, and maybe some regular AF.
Having just re-applied CC I wont need to re-do it for at least 7 years (expect it to last 8 years in Northern NZ water temp, 10 yrs life is for UK water temp) If you are down Chch way you might get the 10 yrs. So I have enough time to do a long time series trial of the durability and performance of a few options. Then I will know what to re-apply in the future, without having to guess or take a big risk on applying a new tech without testing it.
The way the rules are going with anti-foul, it is clear we have to move forward and can't use what has worked for the last decade or so. Hence I reckon its worth me applying some stuff to a plank and leaving it in the water for a few years. Might even do it off the club wharf and put it in the newsletter, so others can watch and learn as well.
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