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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2022 18:10:41 GMT 12
Maybe we need training or a license for boats that can go over 10kts I think something like that could make sense. Or maybe linked to size / weight? Certainly a badly driven fizz boat has potential to cause damage / harm but a badly driven 10-15m launch has even more potential. Sailing boats are obviously not immune either but their innately slower speeds makes them less of a peril to others in the wrong hands. Dont anyone who brought a yacht that cant sail but power boats they treat like driving a car,out of my way.
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Post by Fogg on Jun 2, 2022 18:35:04 GMT 12
Answering fish’s : “What problem are we trying to fix?”, my answer is that it is not the occasional headline-grabbing dramatic / fatal / near-fatal type incidents mentioned here - but the much more routine incidents and near-misses which we all see happening everyday on a busy summer weekend. The big one for me is the ‘passing to close at speed creating a hazardous wake’ - either in an anchorage area or busy channel. In particular the hazard to any children onboard by the arrival of an unexpected wake can be serious. But these incidents rarely make the news.
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Post by fish on Jun 2, 2022 20:02:58 GMT 12
Answering fish’s : “What problem are we trying to fix?”, my answer is that it is not the occasional headline-grabbing dramatic / fatal / near-fatal type incidents mentioned here - but the much more routine incidents and near-misses which we all see happening everyday on a busy summer weekend. The big one for me is the ‘passing to close at speed creating a hazardous wake’ - either in an anchorage area or busy channel. In particular the hazard to any children onboard by the arrival of an unexpected wake can be serious. But these incidents rarely make the news. Its funny you mention that. I've taught my kids to hang on every time I call out "wake" or "waves", in the context of being out and about and a big Riv goes past putting up a 6 ft surfable wave. Now, when we are on the mooring, and a little fryan with a 15 Hp on it tootles past at 4.8 knts, they called out "WAVESSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!", much to my annoyance. I agree with the sentiment Fogg, but do you think licensing would make any noticeable difference? I think this issue is one of curtesy. Not sure you can license curtesy. Maybe I'm a pessimist, but I look at driving behavior, and so many examples of lack of curtesy that leads to accidents and fatalities. Licensing should (Should) be effective for breaches of navigation rules and the like. Like the incident that started this thread. But would it deal with curtesy issues around wake and speed? But if I read the room right, the bulk of issues are speed too close to others. i.e. 5 knts within 200 m or 50 m for people in the water / other boats etc. There are a few ways to address those issues. The first is education (can't educate curtesy). There is also enforcement. Think Waikato Harbour Master hiding in the mangroves busting people for not wearing LJ's. There is boat identification and registration, as has been done for jetski's. Large, traceable rego numbers on the side. This would make enforcement actually possible without excessive cost. If you really pushed me and said we needed a new system, I would put an argument for boat rego numbers and owner registration. It skips all the BS of licensing (and the training industry and ticket clippers), and would provide a way of 'catching up' with any wanker that buzzes you at 25 knts. Licensing wont do that, there is just an assumption you wont get buzzed at 25 knts. The system is already in place for jetski's, so there is a precedence. I'd chuck in a loophole that it only need apply to planning boats, or boats capable of going faster than 10knts. This will catch fizz boats and planning launches, but not yachts :-) and classic displacement launches etc, as well as kayaks and small dinghies etc. Noting that yachts already have a registration system.
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Post by ComfortZone on Jun 2, 2022 22:18:49 GMT 12
If you really pushed me and said we needed a new system, I would put an argument for boat rego numbers and owner registration. It skips all the BS of licensing (and the training industry and ticket clippers), and would provide a way of 'catching up' with any wanker that buzzes you at 25 knts. Licensing wont do that, there is just an assumption you wont get buzzed at 25 knts. The system is already in place for jetski's, so there is a precedence. I'd chuck in a loophole that it only need apply to planning boats, or boats capable of going faster than 10knts. This will catch fizz boats and planning launches, but not yachts :-) and classic displacement launches etc, as well as kayaks and small dinghies etc. Noting that yachts already have a registration system. In my launch ownership days in Perth I had the boat berthed in Aquarama Marina, on the narrow part of the Swan River just upstream from Freemantle. Notwithstanding the 5 kt signs at either end of the marina and all boats prominently displaying their registration numbers, boats would pass close to the marina at 8kts(the river limit) or faster pulling large wakes. Our moored boats would often roll quite violently. I once even penned a letter to all the yacht clubs with marinas upstream of us to raise this with their members - was almost totally ignored. By the way even a displacement launch pulls quite a wake at 8kts plus Registration just becomes another tax. I often anchor at Moturekareka Is when it is sheltered from the wind, now the bay there is a popular destination for jetski's and the 5 kt speed limit amongst anchored boats is roundly ignored, even with rego numbers displayed. I am not saying there is not a problem, it is just that thinking another regulation will solve a problem is a fallacy. My worst wake experience was coming out from Sandspit last year, there was a Riv 48 following me in the 5kt stretch and just as we reached the harbour entrance he gunned it and over took me probably doing 15 kts within 10m pulling a huge wake(at least 1m) in the relatively shallow water, we rolled our guts out smashing several glasses in the grog cabinet. There are some real R.S's around and I honestly don't anything short of a well aimed RPG is going to change their mindsets..
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Post by armchairadmiral on Jun 3, 2022 9:22:05 GMT 12
Yeah.Licensing and registration is only effective for law abiding folk. Makes enforcement a little easier but look at motor vehicle and firearm issues and registration and licensing doesn't stop the bad guys. And on the water enforcement is more difficult.It's a nonsense to say that regulation will bring compliance
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Post by fish on Jun 3, 2022 11:42:12 GMT 12
I was hoping diesel at $2.80 would help with the wake from Riv's, but looks like I was dreaming. Interestingly, I do know a launch owner that wont go near Riv's (as in owning one) because they are hopelessly trimmed and always squat arse down, putting up a massive wake and making for very poor diesel mileage.
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Post by armchairadmiral on Jun 3, 2022 14:10:21 GMT 12
If you can afford a Riv the cost of running it is largely incidental.Look at them filling up at Fitzroy. Most don't even ask the price; just look at the pump to see how much they used and produce their card. One launch owner I know who is an ex yachtie says it's 'only' the cost of one headsail a year.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2022 17:27:54 GMT 12
I was hoping diesel at $2.80 would help with the wake from Riv's, but looks like I was dreaming. Interestingly, I do know a launch owner that wont go near Riv's (as in owning one) because they are hopelessly trimmed and always squat arse down, putting up a massive wake and making for very poor diesel mileage. Was talking to the Late John Spencer mid 80s about launch wakes and the dragging of the bum. One particular brand back then before the rivs. He said plenty of good launch designs around and proven hulls as per what the designer knows how it will handle. Then "SHE" gets involved and wants a shiny fridge freezer,enough hot water like at home,shower etc next minute the weights added with no consultation and the designer gets a bad name through no fault of his/her own but "SHE" stepped in buggered up a good hull.
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Post by ComfortZone on Jun 3, 2022 19:41:21 GMT 12
Was talking to the Late John Spencer mid 80s about launch wakes and the dragging of the bum. One particular brand back then before the rivs. He said plenty of good launch designs around and proven hulls as per what the designer knows how it will handle. Then "SHE" gets involved and wants a shiny fridge freezer,enough hot water like at home,shower etc next minute the weights added with no consultation and the designer gets a bad name through no fault of his/her own but "SHE" stepped in buggered up a good hull. This is very true and a good example is the original Vindex (based at Gulf Harbour sign written Vindex 1), when launched she was a sedan top and powered by a huge lump of a 7L naturally aspirated S6 Perkins. However with very careful double diagonal construction and a basic fitout was able to top out ~19kts, The S6 was changed out when the T6.354 145hp engines came available. Now, being very middle aged (60th birthday this year), and with the addition of flybridge and lots of modcons and even being repowered with a 225hp motor she would struggle to reach her original speed. I know Roger Hill well and have seen the weight studies he does as part of the design process, very detailed right down to the anchor and chain and allowance for galley equipment. As long as the builder sticks to his specs and the owner does not add more crap, his designs always equal or exceed design speed. It is notable that just about all of NZ's earlier successful high speed launches came from yacht designers - Jim Young, John Spencer, John Lidgard, Bob Salthouse and Owen Woolley and all would have been looking for the most efficient design. The other drive for efficiency was the limited range of engines in NZ, up until the early 70's the 2 options were the 145hp Perkins and 180hp Fords. A few boats were built with bigger Cummins or GM's which the owners managed to find some devious work-around to the then import licensing restrictions to source their engines. Jim Young did not like flybridges (weight and windage) and for similar reasons did not like raised bows with flush foredecks - you will recall all Vindexes have a relatively low bow, which made them a bit wet, and a stepped down forard cabin top. Riv's look a bit like they are a bulldozer pushing a wall of water, whereas you watch something like a Corsair at speed, they just raise their bows a little and seem to go across the water like the proverbial snake across wet grass
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2022 19:38:27 GMT 12
ComfortZone,it was "Marksply" that John and I were talking about,Vindex still a good launch if you the comforts out
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Post by em on Jun 4, 2022 20:57:09 GMT 12
I was referring to the Antaeus incident not the launch incident! Yes, that is how I took it. Antaeus got a $200 fine, but Charles had a major fall from grace and substantial reputational loss. Launch guy got a $28k fine. I assumed you were referring to more "penalties" than the court imposed being Charles fall from grace? Average person in the street wouldn’t know who the chocolate eclair browns are and wouldn’t give a ripe fig anyway …but there’s a massive difference between $200 and 28k for very similar T Bone incidents and that sticks out like dogs balls . I would say the Asian guy suffered embarrassment and reputational loss too. I have no idea of the connection between the harbour master of the day and the eclairs but it obviously had an effect on the outcome .
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Post by ComfortZone on Jun 5, 2022 10:47:56 GMT 12
ComfortZone,it was "Marksply" that John and I were talking about,Vindex still a good launch if you the comforts out This was my Vindex 32 , picture is at Garden Is, Perth. She held the world Land Speed/Distance record for a Vindex - I bought her in Brisbane and had her trucked to Perth. A Galah went through the flybridge screen on the Nullabor . Even today quite timeless styling Ref the Marklines, there is a bit of a story about their evolution, as told to me by their one time engineering manager. Their first model in the mordernised portfolio was the 1100, hull design I think by Ted Ewbank. All subsequent 10m+ models were cut and shuts off the 1100. The 1000 just had the mould blocked out to make it shorter, the 1250 was a straight stretch (just the same as Dean Salthouse subsequently did with his New Gen Corsairs to the extreme), whilst the 1300 started off as 13m stretched and fattened 1100 that was never sold (hence the 1300 designation), with the actual 1300 about 11.6m long and a very heavy boat usually fitted with 2 x 375 Cats. Compare that to the original (and a bit underbuilt, the bottoms' on the early boats flexed a bit) Formula 4000 same length only a single 375 Cat. Yachts were not totally exempt from these stretching practices, the most famous local example being Starlight Express, excerpt from Gary Baigent's "Charge of the Light Brigade" (an excellent read, available online for free download) Woody then sold Jumpin’ Jack Flash and immediately had a second version taken from the
Auckland mould – this was Honky Tonk Woman extended to 52 feet with a scooped transom. This boat today is
still racing under varying different names in Australia. Another sister was Night Raider which differed from the
others by having a masthead rig. Woodroffe then wanted an even longer version and suggested to Laurie that the
latest hull be cut in half and a section added to the middle. This particularly annoyed Laurie and he said it
would only work if the joined sections were padded out and faired in, but Woody disagreed and went ahead
anyway –and that is why for a number of years Starlight Express had a flat section amidships with no curve in her
profile,” said Bakewell White.
The aesthetically minded Davidson, irked by the quick and nasty extension approach, warned
Woodroffe that the boat would look wrong by sitting too low in the water. He therefore refused to draw lines for
the yacht, just a sail plan plus basic dimensions. Soon afterwards two other long versions were built but were
constructed correctly to Davidson’s recommendations: this was Woodroffe’s Emotional Rescue which differed
from the others by having a bulb keel (taken from Castaway Fiji’s mould, but attached differently) – and the
other yacht Omni which went to Hong Kong. Then Starlight Express ended up languishing in Sydney to be later
sold in a sorry condition to Stewart 34 sailor Chris Packer who brought it back to Auckland - where it hit a rock
in Man-o-War Passage. Packer was determined to put the boat right and when it was hauled out, he was
somewhat horrified to see the keel wobbling under the crane slings.
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Post by Fogg on Jun 5, 2022 17:30:15 GMT 12
Some nice kiwi marine design history in this thread…
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Post by ComfortZone on Jun 5, 2022 18:20:12 GMT 12
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Post by dutyfree on Jun 5, 2022 22:41:29 GMT 12
In my launch ownership days in Perth I had the boat berthed in Aquarama Marina, on the narrow part of the Swan River just upstream from Freemantle. Notwithstanding the 5 kt signs at either end of the marina and all boats prominently displaying their registration numbers, boats would pass close to the marina at 8kts(the river limit) or faster pulling large wakes. Our moored boats would often roll quite violently. I once even penned a letter to all the yacht clubs with marinas upstream of us to raise this with their members - was almost totally ignored. By the way even a displacement launch pulls quite a wake at 8kts plus Registration just becomes another tax. I often anchor at Moturekareka Is when it is sheltered from the wind, now the bay there is a popular destination for jetski's and the 5 kt speed limit amongst anchored boats is roundly ignored, even with rego numbers displayed. I am not saying there is not a problem, it is just that thinking another regulation will solve a problem is a fallacy. My worst wake experience was coming out from Sandspit last year, there was a Riv 48 following me in the 5kt stretch and just as we reached the harbour entrance he gunned it and over took me probably doing 15 kts within 10m pulling a huge wake(at least 1m) in the relatively shallow water, we rolled our guts out smashing several glasses in the grog cabinet. There are some real R.S's around and I honestly don't anything short of a well aimed RPG is going to change their mindsets.. And in Westhaven there are both launch and yacht owners who seem to think they are exempt from the 5 knots and no wake rules. Yes your yacht does make a wake that affects moored boats as you race out 3 a breast for your races. No, running up close behind me will not make me exceed idle speed in the marina as I stay below 5 knots and dont create a wake in my, yes Riviera (ex-yacht owner). And yes, I can be a pain in the arse as I maneuver for my end of pier berth, I dont have the luxury of doing that down the pier depending on the wind direction.
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