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Post by em on Sept 9, 2022 19:03:28 GMT 12
Looking ahead a few steps , if there was a no take in the gulf the manukau and kaipara would come under pressure and so would the coast guard . The new test of bloke-hood would be to go outside the harbours instead of the mokes or Cuvier or back of barrier etc . But then maybe mokes ,Cuvier , back of barrier will be outside the zone so will get hammered anyway
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Post by GO30 on Sept 11, 2022 9:33:00 GMT 12
Agree em, we deal with NZ fishos a lot and to say some are as extreme in their desires to nail fish is near an understatement. I can super easy see some going out wide or the the West Coast if the Gulf was closed and many will die due to that..... which is not a reason not to close/heavily limit the Gulf.
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Post by em on Sept 12, 2022 7:56:35 GMT 12
Agree em, we deal with NZ fishos a lot and to say some are as extreme in their desires to nail fish is near an understatement. I can super easy see some going out wide or the the West Coast if the Gulf was closed and many will die due to that..... which is not a reason not to close/heavily limit the Gulf. Yeah agree absolutely it’s not a reason to not limit the activities in the gulf . If anything is actually done done it will cause a hell of a shitstorm with the fishos . Imagine the undie knotting if cruising boats were told no more holding tank emptying inside the park .I will go out on a limb here and say that would actually be a very good thing ! . We were in the south of France a couple of years ago and I think the rule there is you have to go 10 miles out if you want to empty your tanks ? Anyway the water was crystal clear even in the marina at Antibes you could see the bottom and it’s 2 or 3 times bigger than westhaven . Shame though because we spent a lot of time on and in the water close to the coast and there was almost zero fish activity , no work ups , no dolphins the only proper fish I saw were mullet in the marina . Seems they were a bit late to the party clamping down on pollution and over fishing |
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Post by armchairadmiral on Sept 12, 2022 8:18:36 GMT 12
I agree reducing but not stopping fishos. A bit like the Covid bs. Think downstream consequences. Fizz boat industry,recreational fishing industry must employ thousands.Remember how the boat tax put many out of business. So I'd run with two fish of each species per person with an upper limit per boat. Break that and you lose boat,trailer and towing vehicle. No fine that'll be sufficient penalty and make it an instant penalty that you can take to court if you want. No exceptions for All Blacks and the chosen few. Also applies equally to maoris. None of this customary bs. They didn't have customary cars,fizzers and outboards. I can see all that happening....yeah right
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Post by fish on Sept 12, 2022 12:48:06 GMT 12
The problem with confiscating the boat and towing vehicle is that the people that intend to break the law get a $500 runabout and a $2,000 Surf to tow it with.
Honest people that make a mistake may loose a $200k boat and $70k towing vehicle. The punishment is not proportional.
On customary rights, this always winds me up. I'd have less of a problem with it if they used customary methods to catch their customary rights. No engines. Boats only made from a single tree. By hand. No braid. No steel hooks. Flax and jaw bones only. But customary is a minor element in the bigger picture.
Total take needs to be reduced incrementally. As we have all noted, it is near impossible to ban recreational fishing. The economic impact would be huge. I'd love to see the numbers, but I expect that stopping commercial fishing IN THE GULF would have far less economic impact, compared to habitat not damaged and biomass not taken.
And on the holding tank thing, there is no environmental impact from that, provided they are dropped in deep water. Far far better than not having holding tanks and letting the shit slop around in enclosed bays, near filter feeders etc.
The water was possible crystal clear in France because there was no life in it. You need algae and plankton for the grazers to eat. Slugs, nubibranches, kina, snails etc, then the bigger fish eat those fish etc etc. Water with spawn all through it is not crystal clear. Nor with plankton blooms and the like. Clearly full of silt etc is not good, but there is a subtle difference in healthy water and crystal clear water.
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Post by em on Sept 12, 2022 18:52:10 GMT 12
The problem with confiscating the boat and towing vehicle is that the people that intend to break the law get a $500 runabout and a $2,000 Surf to tow it with. Honest people that make a mistake may loose a $200k boat and $70k towing vehicle. The punishment is not proportional. On customary rights, this always winds me up. I'd have less of a problem with it if they used customary methods to catch their customary rights. No engines. Boats only made from a single tree. By hand. No braid. No steel hooks. Flax and jaw bones only. But customary is a minor element in the bigger picture. Total take needs to be reduced incrementally. As we have all noted, it is near impossible to ban recreational fishing. The economic impact would be huge. I'd love to see the numbers, but I expect that stopping commercial fishing IN THE GULF would have far less economic impact, compared to habitat not damaged and biomass not taken. And on the holding tank thing, there is no environmental impact from that, provided they are dropped in deep water. Far far better than not having holding tanks and letting the shit slop around in enclosed bays, near filter feeders etc. The water was possible crystal clear in France because there was no life in it. You need algae and plankton for the grazers to eat. Slugs, nubibranches, kina, snails etc, then the bigger fish eat those fish etc etc. Water with spawn all through it is not crystal clear. Nor with plankton blooms and the like. Clearly full of silt etc is not good, but there is a subtle difference in healthy water and crystal clear water. I’m not advocating banning holding tanks just think it’s a pretty big load on the ecological infrastructure out there . It’s not just shit and piss there’s shampoos , cleaning products , a cocktail of drugs old fat dudes take to stay alive , drugs women take to stay sterile , laundry detergents and whatever else ends up in the tank . I love cruising don’t get me wrong and im just as guilty as the next boat at putting crap in the water . It just does my head in sometimes , enjoy it while it lasts . |
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Post by fish on Sept 12, 2022 19:16:34 GMT 12
The problem with confiscating the boat and towing vehicle is that the people that intend to break the law get a $500 runabout and a $2,000 Surf to tow it with. Honest people that make a mistake may loose a $200k boat and $70k towing vehicle. The punishment is not proportional. On customary rights, this always winds me up. I'd have less of a problem with it if they used customary methods to catch their customary rights. No engines. Boats only made from a single tree. By hand. No braid. No steel hooks. Flax and jaw bones only. But customary is a minor element in the bigger picture. Total take needs to be reduced incrementally. As we have all noted, it is near impossible to ban recreational fishing. The economic impact would be huge. I'd love to see the numbers, but I expect that stopping commercial fishing IN THE GULF would have far less economic impact, compared to habitat not damaged and biomass not taken. And on the holding tank thing, there is no environmental impact from that, provided they are dropped in deep water. Far far better than not having holding tanks and letting the shit slop around in enclosed bays, near filter feeders etc. The water was possible crystal clear in France because there was no life in it. You need algae and plankton for the grazers to eat. Slugs, nubibranches, kina, snails etc, then the bigger fish eat those fish etc etc. Water with spawn all through it is not crystal clear. Nor with plankton blooms and the like. Clearly full of silt etc is not good, but there is a subtle difference in healthy water and crystal clear water. I’m not advocating banning holding tanks just think it’s a pretty big load on the ecological infrastructure out there . It’s not just shit and piss there’s shampoos , cleaning products , a cocktail of drugs old fat dudes take to stay alive , drugs women take to stay sterile , laundry detergents and whatever else ends up in the tank . I love cruising don’t get me wrong and im just as guilty as the next boat at putting crap in the water . It just does my head in sometimes , enjoy it while it lasts . If you understood the state of maintenance and performance of onsite wastewater treatment systems, you would never worry about holding tanks. Places like Kawau, Rakino, Waiheke etc, put an order of magnitude more of the items you list into the marine environment than transient boaties ever could. The main point being septic tank discharges come down the water courses into the bays and intertidal areas, where boats (if they follow the rules) dump in deep areas with very high dispersion rates. I always get nervous at Kawau, not cause of all the boaties with holding tanks in bon Accord or North Cove, but all the baches with 50 year old septic tanks that suddenly get the extended family staying, and just overflows into the Coastal Marine Area. |
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Post by GO30 on Sept 12, 2022 20:33:37 GMT 12
Ah back in the day swimming in Bon Accord and having to nudge the turds to one side.
1000's who grew up doing that, as far as I know not one of them died from it.
I do like Armchairs 2 fish and nail offenders hard idea. Mind you for me 2 is a huge haul so I'm already sea life positive.
I know a few Fisheries Inspectors and I think they do a good job but like far too many on the coal face they are let down by the suits in the ivory towers. They are interesting to chat to about whom they catch the most and the assorted techniques/excuses they have. A lot of dodgy catching is sold through churches, more than is sold thru pubs they reckon.
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Post by armchairadmiral on Sept 12, 2022 20:39:11 GMT 12
The effect of removing boat,car and trailer is that it stops that transgressor from fishing. Bans can also be added. Fines are also a disproportinate form of punishment and discriminate against poor. John Key gets caught with an over limit catch and gets fined $2000.Petty Cash to him (probably ?) Fred Brown (Labourer) its devastating. And I've experienced people of higher standing than Fred being very naughty.Fines wouldn't worry them but losing the $000,00 or more would.b Like all crime we've got to enforce with meaningful penalties. Being kind,understanding and educational doesn't work. Don't believe me ? Read papers,view internet and see TV for evidence
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Post by Deleted on Sept 13, 2022 4:30:57 GMT 12
Ah back in the day swimming in Bon Accord and having to nudge the turds to one side. 1000's who grew up doing that, as far as I know not one of them died from it. I do like Armchairs 2 fish and nail offenders hard idea. Mind you for me 2 is a huge haul so I'm already sea life positive. I know a few Fisheries Inspectors and I think they do a good job but like far too many on the coal face they are let down by the suits in the ivory towers. They are interesting to chat to about whom they catch the most and the assorted techniques/excuses they have. A lot of dodgy catching is sold through churches, more than is sold thru pubs they reckon. On the fishery inspectors,where are they,busy ramp at Kawakawa bay,over good days there would be 2 to 300 trailer boats and they inspector is a Honuary,yes has the power but he works solo.Only seen him twice in 6 months,nice guy never a issue. fines are not a deterrent though. Article recently was over limit and the comment was we need them for the church.Yeah right,what are fisheries going to do with several ply crap boats that you would want to cross the bath in?? Then theres the wastage side of things.They allow you to keep your limit then he proceeds to split open the the fish and dumps in the sea by the ramp.apparently cannot give to missions due to unknown condition of fish.Bacteria etc.. $200 fine yeah right and 6 months to pay.We need tougher fines,3 months pd really why not give jail time(it is theft from you and I)confiscate house/car etc really set the example.Oh wait the courts issued several thousand $$ fine against the previous Hawkes bay seafod owner's and still havent paid. Courts confiscated a trawler fishing in a prohibitated area. $75k fine and gave vessel back. www.stuff.co.nz/business/129610300/not-a-cent-of-500000-fines-paid-by-fishing-companies-three-years-on |
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Post by armchairadmiral on Sept 13, 2022 8:36:29 GMT 12
Fines don't work that well. If cars were confiscated and licenses suspended for certain traffic offenses (incluing using a phone) what do you think would happen to the rate of offending ? And tough if the owner isn't driving it. Likewise take the boat car and trailer.It maybe a ply s/box but so what? .It may be as precious to the owner as the 60' Riv. And a ban. They won't go fishing again for a while. Fines ,whilst a penalty are just too easy. Witness HB Seafoods debacle above. What message does that send? If we follow overseas trend soon there'll be a devastated fish resource all while we dithered,being kind and understanding.
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Post by fish on Sept 13, 2022 9:10:31 GMT 12
All this talk of punishment misses the point. You are focusing on poaching / limit theft, but we have a Quota Management System that is not fit for purpose.
Commercial are permitted to take undersize snapper. As long as it is in their quota, so you can get your knickers in a knot about about guys in dodgy ply dinghies taking 100kg of undersized fish, the trawler can take 2,000kg of undersized fish legitimately.
Linking back to the issue of bottom trawling, our current discussion is around removing biomass (kg's of fish). Even the poachers don't stuff up the environment. The bottom trawls stir up silts and sediment, that then settles and smoothers the living organisms. They damage shellfish, filter feeders, worm beds, snails etc that support the wider ecosystem.
Yes more needs to be done about poaching, but it is small change when you have industrialised extraction processes going on in the same area.
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Post by armchairadmiral on Sept 13, 2022 9:16:12 GMT 12
Agreed. My contribution is that it all adds up and for my sixpenneth worth I'd go for longlining only for commercial. Yes that introduces shortages because of volume reduction. Thats better,is it not,than plundering to destruction?
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Post by fish on Sept 13, 2022 10:31:34 GMT 12
Agreed. My contribution is that it all adds up and for my sixpenneth worth I'd go for longlining only for commercial. Yes that introduces shortages because of volume reduction. Thats better,is it not,than plundering to destruction? My general understanding of economics is if the commercial sector can catch less fish, the price goes up due to demand (economics 101), so they can actually increase profits with less work / outlay. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 13, 2022 16:00:11 GMT 12
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