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Post by fish on Apr 14, 2023 16:36:49 GMT 12
Assuming the fault is clearly and unambiguously found to lie with the pleasure boat, then I would dearly love this guy to made an example of and for every book in the legal library to be thrown at him. If we end up seeing some form of registration happen then we’ll just have to wear it. And hoping any new framework is risk-based and therefore aimed primary towards the fastest / most powerful pleasure boats. I was thinking about saying we should just ban auto-pilots. But that is clearly impractical, there already being so many installed. What is far more practical, is putting the fear of god into everyone before they engage their auto-pilot. And as you say, throwing every book in the legal library would most likely achieve that. Note, I am assuming this guy had his AP on and was doing something else at high speed, causing the crash. If there was a mechanical fault like jammed steering AND a stuck throttle, or it turns out the guy was having a medical event, or perhaps even a psychotic episode, then I'll take it all back. There is certainly a growing arguememt for boat registration. it would help with the high number of stolen fizz boats, but the main issue is complaince with basic navigation rules. If someone does something exceptionally dangerous, the best you can do is report "a white boat on the Hauraki Gulf". With AU or US style registration and the prevalence of cell phone cameras, at least there is a reasonable chance the offender can be identified in a legal context.
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Post by Fogg on Apr 14, 2023 17:33:19 GMT 12
Not good and those involved are shaken and have been told not to talk to the media. From those on the water the fizz boat is highly likely to go for a ride and if all is true i hope he does. The laws are there we don't need a license. That’s a good point: 1. Would a license / registration prevent an accident like this? Admittedly we know very little but assuming it was as basic as it appears on the face of it, then no, a new law would not have prevented it. 2. Would a licensed/ registration enable offending boaties to be prosecuted in a way they cannot today? Probably not. So what would be the benefit in serious situations? Hard to see any.
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Post by Cantab on Apr 14, 2023 19:44:05 GMT 12
look at the endless boating cockup videos on you tube "qualified captains" doesn't seem to help.
Like most things, a bit of paper or paying a fee doesn't make you competent.
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Post by Fogg on Apr 14, 2023 19:53:31 GMT 12
Agree license / registration doesn’t necessarily equate to competence (unless it involves a stringent test which is not on the table right now). So I guess the only potential argument is whether license / registration could help indirectly by:
1. Making people think twice before they knowingly do something a bit careless eg driving through an anchorage a bit too fast pushing the 5kts rule etc
2. Identifying offenders from a visible rego
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Post by harrytom on Apr 14, 2023 20:06:19 GMT 12
Agree license / registration doesn’t necessarily equate to competence (unless it involves a stringent test which is not on the table right now). So I guess the only potential argument is whether license / registration could help indirectly by: 1. Making people think twice before they knowingly do something a bit careless eg driving through an anchorage a bit too fast pushing the 5kts rule etc 2. Identifying offenders from a visible rego Number 2 visible rego Now why do jet skis have to be registered and no other vessel?
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Post by fish on Apr 14, 2023 21:02:56 GMT 12
Agree license / registration doesn’t necessarily equate to competence (unless it involves a stringent test which is not on the table right now). So I guess the only potential argument is whether license / registration could help indirectly by: 1. Making people think twice before they knowingly do something a bit careless eg driving through an anchorage a bit too fast pushing the 5kts rule etc 2. Identifying offenders from a visible rego Number 2 visible rego Now why do jet skis have to be registered and no other vessel? Cause jet ski drivers are cunts.
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Post by armchairadmiral on Apr 15, 2023 7:17:30 GMT 12
Re my post regarding h.p. / consequent speed capability. Thats why jetskis get to be registered. If you insist on 600 h.p on a 20 something fizzer then you get registered/licensed/ and controlled. I'll do a power /weight/length/hp /speed rating for the law at no cost .Some rigs are ridiculous and usually driven by morons. Licensing wont fix that but if you make it hard it may deter them
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Post by ComfortZone on Apr 15, 2023 9:49:25 GMT 12
Agree license / registration doesn’t necessarily equate to competence (unless it involves a stringent test which is not on the table right now). So I guess the only potential argument is whether license / registration could help indirectly by: 1. Making people think twice before they knowingly do something a bit careless eg driving through an anchorage a bit too fast pushing the 5kts rule etc 2. Identifying offenders from a visible rego Well consider Antaeus vs Gypsy, Antaeus would have had visible rego from her sail no on her bow and most likely from her NZ Ship rego (for offshore) on her stern. CStC-B certainly had no shortage of experience yet he still had the T-Bone. My issue with rego Australian style is it just becomes a tax, in QLD the annual registration for CZ is $800+. Of course there will be a department of govt wallies to administer this. It is already a requirement in NZ that pleasure boats (local authority rules) clearly display a name/some form of identification and the vast majority do, except for 12' tinnies. CZ has 3 traceable registrations already, YNZ sail no which as required is shown on each side of the bow, NZ registered ship ON (she is part A so not on the transom) and Radio Call sign. All trailer boats obviously have a trailer rego associated with the boat. So any could be displayed. The Russell accident appears on the surface to be a failure to give way, I don't think rego or licensing would have made any difference. Have a look at the MNZ spreadsheet "Notification Summary data" here www.maritimenz.govt.nz/content/commercial/safety/accidents-reporting/reporting-summaries/default.aspand note far more commercial than recreational vessel incidents recorded I go to a gym in Glenmore Dr in Warkworth, opposite its entrance is a bash and boggery (panel beaters) shop, never seems to be short of customers and most of the cars have damaged front ends. Yet all (well vast majority) will be licensed, registered and WOF'd. The new motorway section that is opened has a posted limit of 50kmh, I set the the cruise around 52-55, everyone passes me where there are 2 lanes in use. So what does this say about the effect of licensing and compliance
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Post by em on Apr 15, 2023 11:52:18 GMT 12
Maybe insurance companies will or could step into the void ? No boatmaster or equivalent = no insurance
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Post by GO30 on Apr 15, 2023 12:57:21 GMT 12
Agree license / registration doesn’t necessarily equate to competence (unless it involves a stringent test which is not on the table right now). So I guess the only potential argument is whether license / registration could help indirectly by: 1. Making people think twice before they knowingly do something a bit careless eg driving through an anchorage a bit too fast pushing the 5kts rule etc 2. Identifying offenders from a visible rego We know for a fact the fizz can not have been keeping an adequate lookout which is a huge fail.
We also know for a fact that 96% of accidents at intersections involving motorsickles are caused by 4 wheelers, of which far far too many admit they did not take an adequate look around.
So if all, or the vast majority, of those wayward 4 wheelers have done a fair bit of training and gone thru a licensing system to be behind the wheel yet they still fail to learn, one could comfortably say with a good degree of confidence licensing boaters will not stop a fuckwit from being being one.
Regos I sort of like the idea of, just as identification only purposes, as long as the system do to so is not allowed to evolve into a earner or beyond simple Rego. If fizz nasties were smart they would get a database up and running then encourage all fizzies to get on it before some Council or Govt cock womble decides to do it for them.
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Post by fish on Apr 15, 2023 12:59:33 GMT 12
Agree license / registration doesn’t necessarily equate to competence (unless it involves a stringent test which is not on the table right now). So I guess the only potential argument is whether license / registration could help indirectly by: 1. Making people think twice before they knowingly do something a bit careless eg driving through an anchorage a bit too fast pushing the 5kts rule etc 2. Identifying offenders from a visible rego Well consider Antaeus vs Gypsy, Antaeus would have had visible rego from her sail no on her bow and most likely from her NZ Ship rego (for offshore) on her stern. CStC-B certainly had no shortage of experience yet he still had the T-Bone. My issue with rego Australian style is it just becomes a tax, in QLD the annual registration for CZ is $800+. Of course there will be a department of govt wallies to administer this. It is already a requirement in NZ that pleasure boats (local authority rules) clearly display a name/some form of identification and the vast majority do, except for 12' tinnies. CZ has 3 traceable registrations already, YNZ sail no which as required is shown on each side of the bow, NZ registered ship ON (she is part A so not on the transom) and Radio Call sign. All trailer boats obviously have a trailer rego associated with the boat. So any could be displayed. The Russell accident appears on the surface to be a failure to give way, I don't think rego or licensing would have made any difference. Have a look at the MNZ spreadsheet "Notification Summary data" here www.maritimenz.govt.nz/content/commercial/safety/accidents-reporting/reporting-summaries/default.aspand note far more commercial than recreational vessel incidents recorded I go to a gym in Glenmore Dr in Warkworth, opposite its entrance is a bash and boggery (panel beaters) shop, never seems to be short of customers and most of the cars have damaged front ends. Yet all (well vast majority) will be licensed, registered and WOF'd. The new motorway section that is opened has a posted limit of 50kmh, I set the the cruise around 52-55, everyone passes me where there are 2 lanes in use. So what does this say about the effect of licensing and compliance Yes some accidents are going to happen. But I would feel a lot more comfortable if I knew every other fucker knew their port from their starboard, and what the obligations of the Stand On Vessel actually were. I'd also be far more comfortable in the water if I could know others knew what a dive flag was and how far they should keep clear. In the context of the flares I have to carry, $150 every 2 years or so, I'd be happy to spend that much on a license for myself, IF it gave me confidence every other fucker knew the basics. However, I do accept the arguement that it would become a bureaucratic pile on. I envisage having to pass a simple test on the colregs. But it would know doubt expand to environmental rules, sea-bed protection areas and of course the obligatory Treaty Education and Cultural Knowledge assessment. Noting that the only time I've hit another boat I was on port. Had the other fucker 'stood-on', I would have avoided him. It was a race pre-start. He thought I was crossing infront, but couldn't see me behind his headsail (so not keeping a proper lookout). As I was coming down to avoid him, he decided, without looking, to come down too. I'd go so far as to have a licence cover wing-foilers and kiters etc. On a good day, spots are crawling with foilers whizzing everywhere, not normally under any control at all. I'm fairly sure non of these guys have ever even heard of the terms port and starboard, let alone thought there might actually be giveway rules or something. Normally the respective group just bitch about the other water users getting in 'their' way on the internet. Occasionally Italian hand gestures are used. None know if the wind is on their left should they have to give way, and if the wind is on their right shoulder they are obliged not to do a Crazy-Ivan right in front of me.
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Post by GO30 on Apr 15, 2023 13:06:10 GMT 12
Maybe insurance companies will or could step into the void ? No boatmaster or equivalent = no insurance ACC along with the insurance companies are giving some hell good insurance deals to motorsicklists who do a ACC Ride Forever course.
While I've been a rider for 40 + years I decided to do one working on the 'you just don't know what you don't know' theory. Cost me $50 for the day and I learned a lot, a shed load more than I was expecting. The biggest win was tweaking my dirt bike cornering style into road bike cornering style. I never saw how big a change that could make to my work load and safer technique coming so 50 notes very well spent.
But at the end I was given a number to give to my insurance company who then took $100 off my premiums. What a winner of a day it was.
The ACC and insurance companies are seeing this initiative working by way of a significant decrease in accidents and injuries.
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Post by ComfortZone on Apr 15, 2023 13:12:46 GMT 12
Agree license / registration doesn’t necessarily equate to competence (unless it involves a stringent test which is not on the table right now). So I guess the only potential argument is whether license / registration could help indirectly by: 1. Making people think twice before they knowingly do something a bit careless eg driving through an anchorage a bit too fast pushing the 5kts rule etc 2. Identifying offenders from a visible rego
Regos I sort of like the idea of, just as identification only purposes, as long as the system do to so is not allowed to evolve into a earner or beyond simple Rego. If fizz nasties were smart they would get a database up and running then encourage all fizzies to get on it before some Council or Govt cock womble decides to do it for them.
If you want an idea of how a boat registration system here would go, look at the complete cockup that is the gun licensing system...
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Post by em on Apr 15, 2023 13:50:41 GMT 12
Maybe insurance companies will or could step into the void ? No boatmaster or equivalent = no insurance ACC along with the insurance companies are giving some hell good insurance deals to motorsicklists who do a ACC Ride Forever course.
While I've been a rider for 40 + years I decided to do one working on the 'you just don't know what you don't know' theory. Cost me $50 for the day and I learned a lot, a shed load more than I was expecting. The biggest win was tweaking my dirt bike cornering style into road bike cornering style. I never saw how big a change that could make to my work load and safer technique coming so 50 notes very well spent.
But at the end I was given a number to give to my insurance company who then took $100 off my premiums. What a winner of a day it was.
The ACC and insurance companies are seeing this initiative working by way of a significant decrease in accidents and injuries.
If the Fizz boat driver is found to be at fault the ferry owners insurer will be looking at recovering funds from the Fizz boat driver . I would assume if the fizz boat driver is found to have committed an offence they won’t be covered ? Ferry owners insurer could have a protracted payout recovery process on their hands in that scenario .
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Post by fish on Apr 15, 2023 14:03:41 GMT 12
It would be interesting to know a few more details about all of this. If the fizz boat driver already has some sort of qualification? That would destroy any argument for licensing.
The obvious question is if there was any reason / excuse for this accident? Social Media reports he had a new VHF installed an hour before the incident. Was he out doing radio checks? Was he distracted while driving, pushing buttons on his new VHF? Did the install adversely affect other boat systems? (Not sure how this could lead to a crash though).
I'm going to make an unsubstantiated guess that he was distracted pushing buttons on the new VHF. But why on earth would you do that at speed? You could to-too all day in the marina, or on the water but no need to do it at speed.
I guess that the accident seems so outrageous that I wouldn't be surprised if there is some sort of reason for it.
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