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Post by GO30 on Oct 29, 2023 9:05:47 GMT 12
Bloody central planning communists popping up everywhere. And with that comes 3 rules. 1 - All will be regarded as the same, individuality is unacceptable and must be banished (central planning committee member's, their wags and tight mates excluded) 2 - Everything will revolve and be dragged down to the level of the dumbest fucker out there. 3 - Common sense is the enemy |
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Post by fish on Oct 29, 2023 9:39:55 GMT 12
Accept no one has ever used a lifreraft in a coastal race in NZ. There are so many things to happen before you need a liferaft. That requirement is just arse covering. LR's came about for boats venturing offshore that were completely out of range of rescue, and normally communications. Liferafts are a waste of money and a barrier to participation. Duh! Can you read? We've never had a boat sink in a coastal. We've never had a person drown in a coastal. And until this year we'd never had a fatality in a coastal. It's a question of when, not if, we lose a boat in coastal. It will happen... it's just a question of when. Your assumption that so many things happen before you need a life raft is blatently wrong and shows a complete misunderstanding of how fast boats can sink. Just recently we had a typical coastal race boat go to the bottom within 10 seconds right under the harbour bridge. There was no time for anything to happen, the crew literally started swimming... I can think of four examples off the top of my head where a boat went to the bottom within a minute. One the keel fell off in the boi, one collided with the submerged object at night halfway between Tutukaka and the poor knights. Another was doing Melbourne to Osaka, hit by a rogue wave off the nsw coast, the boat was gone in 30 seconds. And the other outside the Squadron! Shit happens, boats can and do go down fast... Anyway my point is make it the same damn rule. Why should A2T need life rafts but CC doesn't? Why should a 350 RAYC race need Sea Survival but a 700km 3Kings race doesn't? I am not arguing for or against life rafts. But one things for sure, participation in Coastal hasn't gone up since the no life raft carrot was dangled. Why did the boat sink under the harbour bridge? And did they use a liferaft? I don't really follow your logic, that because something has never happened means it is going to. There are so many other layers of safety systems for boats that relying on the ambulance at the bottom of the cliff (a liferaft) isn't a sound strategy anymore. Agree, some consistency would help, but overall I think the majority of CAT 4 and 3 safety requirements are excessively onerous. To kick off an old argument, the need for dangerous and expensive explosives on board with short shelf lifes for cat 5 and 4 is nuts these days. |
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Post by harrytom on Oct 29, 2023 9:58:25 GMT 12
Did the coastal back mid 80s,we had a raft and it was in the bloody way so jammed it inside,hard to make coffee though. If we need it we of would of been screwed,26 footer.
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Post by DuckMaster on Oct 29, 2023 10:36:48 GMT 12
Duh! Can you read? We've never had a boat sink in a coastal. We've never had a person drown in a coastal. And until this year we'd never had a fatality in a coastal. It's a question of when, not if, we lose a boat in coastal. It will happen... it's just a question of when. Your assumption that so many things happen before you need a life raft is blatently wrong and shows a complete misunderstanding of how fast boats can sink. Just recently we had a typical coastal race boat go to the bottom within 10 seconds right under the harbour bridge. There was no time for anything to happen, the crew literally started swimming... I can think of four examples off the top of my head where a boat went to the bottom within a minute. One the keel fell off in the boi, one collided with the submerged object at night halfway between Tutukaka and the poor knights. Another was doing Melbourne to Osaka, hit by a rogue wave off the nsw coast, the boat was gone in 30 seconds. And the other outside the Squadron! Shit happens, boats can and do go down fast... Anyway my point is make it the same damn rule. Why should A2T need life rafts but CC doesn't? Why should a 350 RAYC race need Sea Survival but a 700km 3Kings race doesn't? I am not arguing for or against life rafts. But one things for sure, participation in Coastal hasn't gone up since the no life raft carrot was dangled. Why did the boat sink under the harbour bridge? And did they use a liferaft? I don't really follow your logic, that because something has never happened means it is going to. There are so many other layers of safety systems for boats that relying on the ambulance at the bottom of the cliff (a liferaft) isn't a sound strategy anymore. Agree, some consistency would help, but overall I think the majority of CAT 4 and 3 safety requirements are excessively onerous. To kick off an old argument, the need for dangerous and expensive explosives on board with short shelf lifes for cat 5 and 4 is nuts these days. It's simple statistics and probability. Boats get holes in them and they sink, it's well established that they can sink within seconds, I have given you 4 examples. To assume it will never happen in the middle of the night in a 3m NE swell is absurd. It's also well established that people not wearing life jackets at the moment of a immediate sinking event are exceptionally unlikely to be able to get into a life jacket in time with everything going on. If you've ever been on a overnight sail then you'll understand that people take life jackets off for any number of reasons, be it going to sleep for 2hrs, getting changed into warmer clothes or going to the loo. To think that we will never lose a boat in the Coastal is naivety. To think that a person will never end up in the water without a life jacket on as a result of a boat sinking is also naivety. As for your gripe about flares, you need to get an understanding of why it's a requirement... Hint: it's nothing to do with YNZ or even MaritimeNZ. |
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dp
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Post by dp on Oct 29, 2023 13:28:25 GMT 12
Did the coastal back mid 80s,we had a raft and it was in the bloody way so jammed it inside,hard to make coffee though. If we need it we of would have been screwed,26 footer. I've always carried a life raft. It's about the size of a briefcase. Costs about $300 each year to get serviced but I've carried it on every boat I've ever owned in the last 15 years or so, yacht or launch. I wasn't in favour of the decision to drop the life raft/dinghy from coastal. Even our little club here insists on life raft/dinghy for our longer courses. |
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Post by fish on Oct 29, 2023 16:24:07 GMT 12
Why did the boat sink under the harbour bridge? And did they use a liferaft? I don't really follow your logic, that because something has never happened means it is going to. There are so many other layers of safety systems for boats that relying on the ambulance at the bottom of the cliff (a liferaft) isn't a sound strategy anymore. Agree, some consistency would help, but overall I think the majority of CAT 4 and 3 safety requirements are excessively onerous. To kick off an old argument, the need for dangerous and expensive explosives on board with short shelf lifes for cat 5 and 4 is nuts these days. It's simple statistics and probability. Boats get holes in them and they sink, it's well established that they can sink within seconds, I have given you 4 examples. To assume it will never happen in the middle of the night in a 3m NE swell is absurd. It's also well established that people not wearing life jackets at the moment of a immediate sinking event are exceptionally unlikely to be able to get into a life jacket in time with everything going on. If you've ever been on a overnight sail then you'll understand that people take life jackets off for any number of reasons, be it going to sleep for 2hrs, getting changed into warmer clothes or going to the loo. To think that we will never lose a boat in the Coastal is naivety. To think that a person will never end up in the water without a life jacket on as a result of a boat sinking is also naivety. As for your gripe about flares, you need to get an understanding of why it's a requirement... Hint: it's nothing to do with YNZ or even MaritimeNZ. You've listed four boats that (allegedly) sunk. You've given no details as to what happened. How they came to sink, what caused it, what the crew did, how they were rescued, and most importantly, what use a liferaft would have been. There is no link with the statement that boats sink and the benefit of carrying a liferaft. Planes crash all the time, but none are required to carry parachutes. Your first response to that is probably that I am being facitious, but think it through. Just because a boat carries a liferaft doesn't mean that it can be used, or that there are not any better options. Just the same way that carrying a parachute on most planes would make no difference to residual risk. Rule one of sea survival, if you've ever done it, is never to get into your liferaft. There is a reason for that rule. You're coming across fairly belligerently on this. If you are up for an objective discussion on it that would be great, if you just want a pissing match, I can't really be bothered. |
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Post by fish on Oct 29, 2023 17:02:46 GMT 12
Here is an example of a recent marine tradegy in NZ, where liferafts were compulsory.
5 people died.
The liferafts were no help at all. There were two onboard. Neither deployed automatically, as required.
That was the Enchanter.
The govt reports went on and on about LJ's, but didn't mention (or briefly mentioned) the failure of the LR's.
Many recommendations were about where and how to store LJ's, so the crew could find them and put them on. All twaddle.
The irony with this liferaft discussion is that I recon 4 out of those 5 fatalities would have been saved if the LR actually worked.
Noting the Enchanter, working around 3 Kings, is an offshore boat and not a coastal cruiser / racer.
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Post by harrytom on Oct 29, 2023 17:45:01 GMT 12
Here is an example of a recent marine tradegy in NZ, where liferafts were compulsory. 5 people died. The liferafts were no help at all. There were two onboard. Neither deployed automatically, as required. That was the Enchanter. The govt reports went on and on about LJ's, but didn't mention (or briefly mentioned) the failure of the LR's. Many recommendations were about where and how to store LJ's, so the crew could find them and put them on. All twaddle. The irony with this liferaft discussion is that I recon 4 out of those 5 fatalities would have been saved if the LR actually worked. Noting the Enchanter, working around 3 Kings, is an offshore boat and not a coastal cruiser / racer. The Enchanter is a different kettle of fish, the skipper in hindsight should of made compulsory wearing of lj due to changing weather, but we all get complacent at times,shel be right,lj from my understanding were in a locker forward not at ready access. Did a few night races wearing a harness and on several occasions disconnected due to not able to carry out work required,risk yes,but also had a inflatable on. One of those nighst when you wish you were somewhere else. Puting gaskets on a headsail that would stay put and then going aloft to ping a spinnaker halyard that jumped out of sheath. |
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Post by DuckMaster on Oct 29, 2023 17:53:13 GMT 12
Your assertion that: "There are so many things to happen before you need a liferaft" is just wrong.
There's really no point having a conversation about the value of liferafts if that's your position.
You're either naive or just acting.
I suggest doing some research on just how fast a boat can actually disappear beneath your feet on a stormy night. Then come back and continue the conversation.
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Post by fish on Oct 29, 2023 18:43:19 GMT 12
Your assertion that: "There are so many things to happen before you need a liferaft" is just wrong. There's really no point having a conversation about the value of liferafts if that's your position. You're either naive or just acting. I suggest doing some research on just how fast a boat can actually disappear beneath your feet on a stormy night. Then come back and continue the conversation. Can you give an example, just one, of when a liferaft was actually used? You've alluded to 4 examples of boats suddenly sinking. I'm not aware of any. Could you give some details? Please? Even when RanTan was lost, mid Pacific, they didn't need or use a liferaft. Of fatalities in cruising yachts recently, all have been to do with crash gybes and the boom. Platino and Second Life. Sadly the same applies for the Coastal. Even the last two mid ocean rescues have not needed life rafts, being the trans-Pacific rower who capsized, and the crazy Russians who were sailing around the world in an inflatable catamaran, got attacked by cookie cutter sharks between Vanuatu and Aust. My position is that it is illogical to spend significant resources on safety measures that aren't ever used. Have a look at all the safety gear that is used. EPIRB's and PLB's. VHF's, sat comms. Weather routing. Modern boat construction. Boat's aren't made of carvel planks anymore, and don't just suddenly sink, accept for that American one mid Tasman without a trace. Unfortunately a liferaft wasn't any help there either. A water activated EPIRB could have been, maybe, probably not. |
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Post by fish on Oct 29, 2023 18:52:04 GMT 12
Here is an example of a recent marine tradegy in NZ, where liferafts were compulsory. 5 people died. The liferafts were no help at all. There were two onboard. Neither deployed automatically, as required. That was the Enchanter. The govt reports went on and on about LJ's, but didn't mention (or briefly mentioned) the failure of the LR's. Many recommendations were about where and how to store LJ's, so the crew could find them and put them on. All twaddle. The irony with this liferaft discussion is that I recon 4 out of those 5 fatalities would have been saved if the LR actually worked. Noting the Enchanter, working around 3 Kings, is an offshore boat and not a coastal cruiser / racer. The Enchanter is a different kettle of fish, the skipper in hindsight should of made compulsory wearing of lj due to changing weather, but we all get complacent at times,shel be right,lj from my understanding were in a locker forward not at ready access. Did a few night races wearing a harness and on several occasions disconnected due to not able to carry out work required,risk yes,but also had a inflatable on. One of those nighst when you wish you were somewhere else. Puting gaskets on a headsail that would stay put and then going aloft to ping a spinnaker halyard that jumped out of sheath. I only mentioned the Enchanter as it was an example of a boat that was required to carry liferafts that were feckin useless. Given everyone was inside, I wouldn't have made anyone wear a LJ. In the whole domino theory of that incident, if the liferaft inflated as intended, it is almost certain that 4 more would have survived. The guy asleep in his bunk was toast regardless, due to the capsize, but the rescue helo saw the others in the water before they departed and waited 4 hrs 30min for fuel to be driven up from Fungarei. So the irony is that while I am arguing against LR's for coastal / inshore racing, the one example we can find of fatalities would clearly have been saved if the liferaft actually worked. Noting it was on an offshore commercial boat (which I think is a no-brainer for liferafts) |
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Post by DuckMaster on Oct 29, 2023 19:19:31 GMT 12
Your assertion that: "There are so many things to happen before you need a liferaft" is just wrong. There's really no point having a conversation about the value of liferafts if that's your position. You're either naive or just acting. I suggest doing some research on just how fast a boat can actually disappear beneath your feet on a stormy night. Then come back and continue the conversation. Can you give an example, just one, of when a liferaft was actually used? You've alluded to 4 examples of boats suddenly sinking. I'm not aware of any. Could you give some details? Please? Even when RanTan was lost, mid Pacific, they didn't need or use a liferaft. Of fatalities in cruising yachts recently, all have been to do with crash gybes and the boom. Platino and Second Life. Sadly the same applies for the Coastal. Even the last two mid ocean rescues have not needed life rafts, being the trans-Pacific rower who capsized, and the crazy Russians who were sailing around the world in an inflatable catamaran, got attacked by cookie cutter sharks between Vanuatu and Aust. My position is that it is illogical to spend significant resources on safety measures that aren't ever used. Have a look at all the safety gear that is used. EPIRB's and PLB's. VHF's, sat comms. Weather routing. Modern boat construction. Boat's aren't made of carvel planks anymore, and don't just suddenly sink, accept for that American one mid Tasman without a trace. Unfortunately a liferaft wasn't any help there either. A water activated EPIRB could have been, maybe, probably not. I have given you examples of four boats which sunk immediately that I personally know about. Here they are again: 1. Elliphunk a Elliott 10 was holed in a rum race, it went to the bottom immediately the crew were literally swimming within 7 seconds 2 An Elliott 10, Sea Biscuit had it's keel fall off while cruising in the BOI it went onto it's side, filled with water and sunk in 30 seconds 3 in 1999 (or 2000) Green Hornet was competing in Melbourne to Osaka, it got hit by a Rogue Wave off the NSW coast. The boat broke up, immediately sinking. 4 In the 90s a Beneateau 323 was being delivered from Opua to Auckland, somewhere around poor knights they hit what was probably a submerged container and the boat sunk in 100m of water (it's still there) it was gone in 15 seconds. Here's another. In 1972 a wooden schooner was attacked by Orca and the boat sunk in 60 seconds. I am by no means a expert on boat sinking. It stands to reason that if there's 5 that I know about there's hundreds more that I don't... Therefore it's possible for a boat to sink in seconds and for, as you put it, there be no time for anything to happen before the liferaft is needed. Ref, Ran Tan II it didn't sink. The boat was abandoned and left floating. And they did use the life raft, they abandoned ship into the liferaft when they deemed it was unsafe to stay on the boat. But that's not a example of a boat that disappeared in seconds. Ran Tan II is probably still floating out there somewhere. That's not the same argument you had. Your position was that, and I quote, "There are so many things to happen before you need a liferaft". My position is you're wrong, there are many examples of boats that have disappeared within seconds. It can and it does happen. If you think if will never happen to a boat on coastal, if you think it will never happen when just one crew member has there life jacket off, you're living in another reality. |
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Post by fish on Oct 29, 2023 20:08:06 GMT 12
That's not the same argument you had. Your position was that, and I quote, "There are so many things to happen before you need a liferaft". My position is you're wrong, there are many examples of boats that have disappeared within seconds. It can and it does happen. If you think if will never happen to a boat on coastal, if you think it will never happen when just one crew member has there life jacket off, you're living in another reality. Great, thanks for those examples. Was a liferaft used in any of those situations? Re Elephunks collision, (or any collision) the other boat is going to provide assistance far more reliably than a LR. My point still stands "There are many things that need to happen before you need a liferaft". You have managed to establish one, that the boat sinks. Could you launch a liferaft and get into it tonight? - No. You can't launch a lifefraft in a gale. I tried in the 2007 Fastnet. If it doesn't blow away and break it's tether (noting that in all your examples of boats sinking in seconds the boat will sink the LR, or the tether will break and it will blow away), then you have to try and get into it to get some ballast on and stop said liferaft blowing away. Liferafts are far more limited a utility than people realise. They are feckin awful to be in, and in most situations other than swimming pools or marina's are also difficult to launch, manage and get into. Sure they serve a purpose. Esp offshore and with commercial boats, ferries etc. But I think far to much reliance is placed on them in the context of coastal cruising and racing. I think that primarily liferafts provide a psychological comfort blanket than any practical safety element. When people get a bit scared or anxious on a dark and stormy night they like the idea of having a nice safe liferaft to get into. That is great in theory, but the practicalities of it are starkly different. |
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Post by DuckMaster on Oct 29, 2023 20:29:23 GMT 12
That's not the same argument you had. Your position was that, and I quote, "There are so many things to happen before you need a liferaft". My position is you're wrong, there are many examples of boats that have disappeared within seconds. It can and it does happen. If you think if will never happen to a boat on coastal, if you think it will never happen when just one crew member has there life jacket off, you're living in another reality. Great, thanks for those examples. Was a liferaft used in any of those situations? Re Elephunks collision, (or any collision) the other boat is going to provide assistance far more reliably than a LR. My point still stands "There are many things that need to happen before you need a liferaft". You have managed to establish one, that the boat sinks. Could you launch a liferaft and get into it tonight? - No. You can't launch a lifefraft in a gale. I tried in the 2007 Fastnet. If it doesn't blow away and break it's tether (noting that in all your examples of boats sinking in seconds the boat will sink the LR, or the tether will break and it will blow away), then you have to try and get into it to get some ballast on and stop said liferaft blowing away. Liferafts are far more limited a utility than people realise. They are feckin awful to be in, and in most situations other than swimming pools or marina's are also difficult to launch, manage and get into. Sure they serve a purpose. Esp offshore and with commercial boats, ferries etc. But I think far to much reliance is placed on them in the context of coastal cruising and racing. I think that primarily liferafts provide a psychological comfort blanket than any practical safety element. When people get a bit scared or anxious on a dark and stormy night they like the idea of having a nice safe liferaft to get into. That is great in theory, but the practicalities of it are starkly different. It's not the point. The point is a boat can and boats have sunk within seconds. Your argument that plenty happens before you need a liferaft is complete bullshit and not founded on the reality that boats can and do sink in seconds. If my boat sunk in seconds I would much rather have an opportunity to try and get into a liferaft than to stand there and declare a liferaft wouldn't have worked anyway. What a complete Darwin moment. Old mate in his French boat, managed to untie his inflatable dinghy and jump into it today in this storm so he could be winched out by helicopter only hours ago. That was his liferaft and it was obviously very effective for him. And yeah his boat didn't sink, but he still had his liferaft... The crew of Ran Tan II spent 13hrs in their liferaft before they were rescued. The crew of the Essence spent 3 hours in the water in 10m waves off Cape Brett in the same Coastal Classic waters we race in waiting for an Orion to drop them a liferaft which 2/4 managed to get into to spend another 2 hrs in waiting for a Helicopter to winch them out. 1/2 that couldn't get into the raft died The 1972 schooner I mentioned above spent 60 days in there liferaft and dinghy... I am sure everyone of them would of preferred to have the liferaft than not. It seems that your experience with liferafts doesn't equate to reality. And I recall another 50fter that was recently sunk by a whale in the Pacific and the crew spent 9hrs in there liferaft waiting for rescue. Yep I am sure those 4 people would preferred to be floating in the water rather than in there liferaft. |
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Post by fish on Oct 29, 2023 20:59:14 GMT 12
Great, thanks for those examples. Was a liferaft used in any of those situations? Re Elephunks collision, (or any collision) the other boat is going to provide assistance far more reliably than a LR. My point still stands "There are many things that need to happen before you need a liferaft". You have managed to establish one, that the boat sinks. Could you launch a liferaft and get into it tonight? - No. You can't launch a lifefraft in a gale. I tried in the 2007 Fastnet. If it doesn't blow away and break it's tether (noting that in all your examples of boats sinking in seconds the boat will sink the LR, or the tether will break and it will blow away), then you have to try and get into it to get some ballast on and stop said liferaft blowing away. Liferafts are far more limited a utility than people realise. They are feckin awful to be in, and in most situations other than swimming pools or marina's are also difficult to launch, manage and get into. Sure they serve a purpose. Esp offshore and with commercial boats, ferries etc. But I think far to much reliance is placed on them in the context of coastal cruising and racing. I think that primarily liferafts provide a psychological comfort blanket than any practical safety element. When people get a bit scared or anxious on a dark and stormy night they like the idea of having a nice safe liferaft to get into. That is great in theory, but the practicalities of it are starkly different. It's not the point. The point is a boat can and boats have sunk within seconds. Your argument that plenty happens before you need a liferaft is complete bullshit and not founded on the reality that boats can and do sink in seconds. If my boat sunk in seconds I would much rather have an opportunity to try and get into a liferaft than to stand there and declare a liferaft wouldn't have worked anyway. What a complete Darwin moment. Old mate in his French boat, managed to untie his inflatable dinghy and jump into it today in this storm so he could be winched out by helicopter only hours ago. That was his liferaft and it was obviously very effective for him. And yeah his boat didn't sink, but he still had his liferaft... The crew of Ran Tan II spent 13hrs in their liferaft before they were rescued. The crew of the Essence spent 3 hours in the water in 10m waves off Cape Brett in the same Coastal Classic waters we race in waiting for an Orion to drop them a liferaft which 2/4 managed to get into to spend another 2 hrs in waiting for a Helicopter to winch them out. 1/2 that couldn't get into the raft died The 1972 schooner I mentioned above spent 60 days in there liferaft and dinghy... I am sure everyone of them would of preferred to have the liferaft than not. It seems that your experience with liferafts doesn't equate to reality. And I recall another 50fter that was recently sunk by a whale in the Pacific and the crew spent 9hrs in there liferaft waiting for rescue. Yep I am sure those 4 people would preferred to be floating in the water rather than in there liferaft. That is all great, but go back to what we were discussing in the first place. The need for LR on the Auckland Tauranga and the Coastal Classic. All your examples are offshore boats. Including the Essence. And using a 1972 Schooner as an example is out of date by a good 50 years. That was when liferafts had a purpose. A lot has changed in 50 years. Safety gear needs to be fit for purpose. It needs to be useful. It also needs to be accessible. PLB's cost about $450 now and last 7 years. A cheap liferaft costs $3k and lasts two years. PLB's or some other form of comms are used in every rescue. Always. To use a liferaft, as I said earlier, you still need several other things to happen. Apply that to the context of inshore / coastal cruising. They just aren't needed. That is why you can't point to a situation where one has been used. Not even in the RNI or RNZ. Yes, they are used and needed offshore. But then applying offshore standards to inshore races is inappropriate. And yes I did notice the French guy managed to launch his dinghy and use it for the helo extraction. That wasn't a liferaft, it was a dinghy. All cruisers carry dinghies. I did think it was a bit odd that he could launch his dinghy in those conditions but still needed rescueing. I can only assume it was pre-emptive given he'd shredded his sails and sea conditions were only going to get worse / drift in toward the coast. PS, I'm dead keen for you to fess up on why we need flares, if its not YNZ or MNZ. I've let off dozens of flares and they have a whole bunch of hazards all of their own... oh, and expire every 2 years. |
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