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Post by DuckMaster on Oct 29, 2023 21:25:28 GMT 12
The offshore boats that have run into problems on our coast.... Hmmm I guess only off shore boats run into problems in NZ coastal waters... It will never happen to a coastal cruising or racing boat, how silly of me.
Oh wait weren't 4 people just plucked from the waters behind Rakino after there boat sunk, they spent 1.5hrs floating in the sea waiting for rescue. Oh wait all is well with your logic they were planning to go off shore - so yep they were an off shore boat too...
And hmmm... A dinghy is an cat 3 alternative to a liferaft. Hence inflated dinghy OR liferaft.
Re flares, it's the united nations SOLAS convention and it's a requirement of world sailing that is filtered down. If you don't race, you don't need to carry flares.
The safety rules allow solas approved LED/laser flares but there's no such thing as the UN has not approved any led or laser flares under the solas convention.
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Post by fish on Oct 30, 2023 9:17:19 GMT 12
The offshore boats that have run into problems on our coast.... Hmmm I guess only off shore boats run into problems in NZ coastal waters... It will never happen to a coastal cruising or racing boat, how silly of me. Oh wait weren't 4 people just plucked from the waters behind Rakino after there boat sunk, they spent 1.5hrs floating in the sea waiting for rescue. Oh wait all is well with your logic they were planning to go off shore - so yep they were an off shore boat too... And hmmm... A dinghy is an cat 3 alternative to a liferaft. Hence inflated dinghy OR liferaft. Re flares, it's the united nations SOLAS convention and it's a requirement of world sailing that is filtered down. If you don't race, you don't need to carry flares. The safety rules allow solas approved LED/laser flares but there's no such thing as the UN has not approved any led or laser flares under the solas convention. As we can see in this current weather, today, offshore boats have very limited ability to choose a time and weather conditions to arrive at the NZ coast. Coastal cruisers and racers have almost infinite ability to choose when to leave a safe harbour, and the flip side is they are never more than a couple of hours from a safe harbour, so have no need to ride out storms that were forecast several days earlier. Now, what is this latest example you've thought of, an offshore boat sinking behind Rakino? I really don't think you are looking at this objectively. Have a look at the last THREE fatal incidents involving yachts. In all three wearing a helmet would have prevented the fatalities. But strangely wearing a helmet is not a safety requirement under any of the YNZ cat requirements. It is however a compulsory requirement for kids dinghy racing. The corollary of those last 3 fatal accidents is that a liferaft was no use at all. Those three fatal incidents being the Platino, Second Life and the Coastal. Safety systems and safety regulations need to adapt and respond to risks and hazards. 50 years ago boats used to sink, especially carvel planked boats. That was when liferafts were really useful. Now we have improved construction materials (noting Elephunk was a plywood boat). We have dramatically improved communications. We also have reliable helicopters that can perform rescues at sea in a predictable way along the coastal areas we are talking about. Referencing your logic that 'boats sink', therefore we must all carry expensive liferafts. The first step in a boat sinking is that you require assistance. There are several options now to resolve how that assistance is rendered. One being a liferaft. Others being nearby boats, and with modern comms it is far easier to communicate the issue and location. If there aren't nearby boats, then rescue helicopters. 50 years ago the only way you could signal a boat in the area was with pyrotechnics. We did not have reliable rescue helicopters. We didn't even have rescue helicopter services based in any region of the country. They are now based in every region. The evidence is clear. The wearing of helmets should be compulsory in all forms of sailing. Yet no one is talking about it. Its not even a topic. We are still focused on out of date safety equipment that are hugely expensive, have short service lifes and are hopelessly unreliable (refer the Enchanter and its TWO LR's failing to inflate). Our safety standards are not agile enough. I applaud the Clubs (Mutlihull) that are recognising that liferafts have increasingly diminishing benefit and adapting their requirements accordingly. And jokes aside, kids have to sail dinghies with helmets, but all the adult fatalities in the last 3 incidents have been adults dying due to booms to the head. How long until helmets become a safety item on keel boats?
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Post by DuckMaster on Oct 30, 2023 10:03:34 GMT 12
It was Yachting NZ that made the no liferaft decision. Not some unicorn club as you'd like to imagine.
You should look at the age of the Coastal fleet. You'll note that there aren't very many modern sink proof boats as you put it.
I stand by my statement that it's a question of when not if we lose a boat in a Coastal Classic.
It will happen. And as I have shown boats can sink very quickly. We will, in the future see a boat sink with the crew spread around, if it happens in the dark, in conditions similar to what we just had in the last coastal, there will be a high chance of a drowning.
Then of course the experts will change their tune and liferafts will be mandated again.
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Post by em on Oct 30, 2023 10:22:21 GMT 12
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Post by fish on Oct 30, 2023 10:45:48 GMT 12
It was Yachting NZ that made the no liferaft decision. Not some unicorn club as you'd like to imagine. You should look at the age of the Coastal fleet. You'll note that there aren't very many modern sink proof boats as you put it. I stand by my statement that it's a question of when not if we lose a boat in a Coastal Classic. It will happen. And as I have shown boats can sink very quickly. We will, in the future see a boat sink with the crew spread around, if it happens in the dark, in conditions similar to what we just had in the last coastal, there will be a high chance of a drowning. Then of course the experts will change their tune and liferafts will be mandated again. Again you are not being objective. I never said 'sink proof'. That is something you have coined. Trying to twist the facts to support your arguement. Modern boats have less propensity to sink. At the same time liferafts are having a diminished benefit. At some point the benefit of the liferaft diminishes to a point they are not required any more. The corollary with the Coastal requirement is that all crew wear life jackets if no LR is carried. I haven't checked, but I would assume the LJ includes a light and a hood. That makes it substantially easier to find people in the water and the hood increases in water survival time. More so, and this isn't a requirement, but I always wear a PLB on my person. That means that if a yacht does sink suddenly, in 15 secs as you say, the crew are already prepared to be in the water, can be found, and if you are wearing a PLB can raise the alarm. On my boat the LR is in a valiase, so is stored downstairs. About as useful as tits on a bull if the boat sinks in 15 secs. LR's aren't mandated to have auto-releases, so even deck stowed LR's can go down with the ship. And noting the Enchanter had two auto-release LR's and neither worked in that sudden capsize incident. Then, if you do manage to inflate your LR, you have to stop it blowing away, and all crew need to be able to swim to it, AND get into it. If they are wearing those inflatable LJ's (or any LJ for that matter) swimming any great distance (10m or more) is very difficult. There is a good chance a swimmer couldn't swim faster than the drift rate of a liferaft. I would argue that, in the scenario you set out of a boat sinking in 15 sec, it is safer to have the current coastal requirement of all crew in LJ's than to have people in the water without LJ's trying to find, swim to and get into a drifting liferaft. I'm curious Duckmaster, have you ever done a sea survival course? Or have you handled a liferaft in a real world situation (at sea)? I've done both and I think that forms a large part of my pessimistic view around liferafts. Handling one on a boat at sea is like trying to hang onto an inflatable air-bed with a sail tied to it while you organise all the crew off the boat and into said airbed. Sounds great in theory but a dogs breakfast in reality. Far better to wear the means of survival and rescue on your person. Even my basic dinghy fishing set up now I have a VHF and PLB on my LJ, along with a very bright divers torch and a head torch. In dry bags in the boat I have two cell phones, so 4 forms of communication. That is a foam LJ design with pockets for safety devices. Foam LJ not needing servicing, and more comfortable for that application. It is a purpose designed kayak fishing LJ. Short handed racing has long required crew to wear / carry "a means of initiating a rescue from within the water", as well as a fully spec'ed LJ, being crotch straps, hood and light. That is an example of adapting safety requirements for the situation. Far safer for short handed crew to be self sufficient in initiating a rescue and being suddenly in the water. PS, you didn't mention the name of the offshore boat that sunk suddenly behind Rakino? Did it even happen?
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Post by em on Oct 30, 2023 11:03:19 GMT 12
It was a Beale ? That sunk at Rakino I think ? Sudden wind change in the middle of a quiet night with 40 plus knots squall ?
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Post by em on Oct 30, 2023 11:12:25 GMT 12
It was Yachting NZ that made the no liferaft decision. Not some unicorn club as you'd like to imagine. You should look at the age of the Coastal fleet. You'll note that there aren't very many modern sink proof boats as you put it. I stand by my statement that it's a question of when not if we lose a boat in a Coastal Classic. It will happen. And as I have shown boats can sink very quickly. We will, in the future see a boat sink with the crew spread around, if it happens in the dark, in conditions similar to what we just had in the last coastal, there will be a high chance of a drowning. Then of course the experts will change their tune and liferafts will be mandated again. Again you are not being objective. I never said 'sink proof'. That is something you have coined. Trying to twist the facts to support your arguement. Modern boats have less propensity to sink. At the same time liferafts are having a diminished benefit. At some point the benefit of the liferaft diminishes to a point they are not required any more. The corollary with the Coastal requirement is that all crew wear life jackets if no LR is carried. I haven't checked, but I would assume the LJ includes a light and a hood. That makes it substantially easier to find people in the water and the hood increases in water survival time. More so, and this isn't a requirement, but I always wear a PLB on my person. That means that if a yacht does sink suddenly, in 15 secs as you say, the crew are already prepared to be in the water, can be found, and if you are wearing a PLB can raise the alarm. On my boat the LR is in a valiase, so is stored downstairs. About as useful as tits on a bull if the boat sinks in 15 secs. LR's aren't mandated to have auto-releases, so even deck stowed LR's can go down with the ship. And noting the Enchanter had two auto-release LR's and neither worked in that sudden capsize incident. Then, if you do manage to inflate your LR, you have to stop it blowing away, and all crew need to be able to swim to it, AND get into it. If they are wearing those inflatable LJ's (or any LJ for that matter) swimming any great distance (10m or more) is very difficult. There is a good chance a swimmer couldn't swim faster than the drift rate of a liferaft. I would argue that, in the scenario you set out of a boat sinking in 15 sec, it is safer to have the current coastal requirement of all crew in LJ's than to have people in the water without LJ's trying to find, swim to and get into a drifting liferaft. I'm curious Duckmaster, have you ever done a sea survival course? Or have you handled a liferaft in a real world situation (at sea)? I've done both and I think that forms a large part of my pessimistic view around liferafts. Handling one on a boat at sea is like trying to hang onto an inflatable air-bed with a sail tied to it while you organise all the crew off the boat and into said airbed. Sounds great in theory but a dogs breakfast in reality. Far better to wear the means of survival and rescue on your person. Even my basic dinghy fishing set up now I have a VHF and PLB on my LJ, along with a very bright divers torch and a head torch. In dry bags in the boat I have two cell phones, so 4 forms of communication. That is a foam LJ design with pockets for safety devices. Foam LJ not needing servicing, and more comfortable for that application. It is a purpose designed kayak fishing LJ. Short handed racing has long required crew to wear / carry "a means of initiating a rescue from within the water", as well as a fully spec'ed LJ, being crotch straps, hood and light. That is an example of adapting safety requirements for the situation. Far safer for short handed crew to be self sufficient in initiating a rescue and being suddenly in the water. PS, you didn't mention the name of the offshore boat that sunk suddenly behind Rakino? Did it even happen? After the Coastal just gone I’m going to ensure all crew have a PLB attached . We didn’t have any close calls but the conditions just inside cape Brett and onwards to Red head were very marginal . Anyone falling out of the boat would’ve been very hard to find , 100m visibility and very dirty air of 30 plus knots in gusts combined with 3 different swell directions . All clipped in but a plywood deck can only handle so much point loading and 3 of us are 100kg or just under .
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Post by fish on Oct 30, 2023 11:13:03 GMT 12
It was a Beale ? That sunk at Rakino I think ? Sudden wind change in the middle of a quiet night with 40 plus knots squall ? I know that one. That was dragging an anchor. They hoped onto the islet the boat sunk on, then were lifted off by a helicopter. I'm not sure an incident where they walk ashore supports the mandatory use of liferafts though.
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Post by fish on Oct 30, 2023 11:16:51 GMT 12
Again you are not being objective. I never said 'sink proof'. That is something you have coined. Trying to twist the facts to support your arguement. Modern boats have less propensity to sink. At the same time liferafts are having a diminished benefit. At some point the benefit of the liferaft diminishes to a point they are not required any more. The corollary with the Coastal requirement is that all crew wear life jackets if no LR is carried. I haven't checked, but I would assume the LJ includes a light and a hood. That makes it substantially easier to find people in the water and the hood increases in water survival time. More so, and this isn't a requirement, but I always wear a PLB on my person. That means that if a yacht does sink suddenly, in 15 secs as you say, the crew are already prepared to be in the water, can be found, and if you are wearing a PLB can raise the alarm. On my boat the LR is in a valiase, so is stored downstairs. About as useful as tits on a bull if the boat sinks in 15 secs. LR's aren't mandated to have auto-releases, so even deck stowed LR's can go down with the ship. And noting the Enchanter had two auto-release LR's and neither worked in that sudden capsize incident. Then, if you do manage to inflate your LR, you have to stop it blowing away, and all crew need to be able to swim to it, AND get into it. If they are wearing those inflatable LJ's (or any LJ for that matter) swimming any great distance (10m or more) is very difficult. There is a good chance a swimmer couldn't swim faster than the drift rate of a liferaft. I would argue that, in the scenario you set out of a boat sinking in 15 sec, it is safer to have the current coastal requirement of all crew in LJ's than to have people in the water without LJ's trying to find, swim to and get into a drifting liferaft. I'm curious Duckmaster, have you ever done a sea survival course? Or have you handled a liferaft in a real world situation (at sea)? I've done both and I think that forms a large part of my pessimistic view around liferafts. Handling one on a boat at sea is like trying to hang onto an inflatable air-bed with a sail tied to it while you organise all the crew off the boat and into said airbed. Sounds great in theory but a dogs breakfast in reality. Far better to wear the means of survival and rescue on your person. Even my basic dinghy fishing set up now I have a VHF and PLB on my LJ, along with a very bright divers torch and a head torch. In dry bags in the boat I have two cell phones, so 4 forms of communication. That is a foam LJ design with pockets for safety devices. Foam LJ not needing servicing, and more comfortable for that application. It is a purpose designed kayak fishing LJ. Short handed racing has long required crew to wear / carry "a means of initiating a rescue from within the water", as well as a fully spec'ed LJ, being crotch straps, hood and light. That is an example of adapting safety requirements for the situation. Far safer for short handed crew to be self sufficient in initiating a rescue and being suddenly in the water. PS, you didn't mention the name of the offshore boat that sunk suddenly behind Rakino? Did it even happen? After the Coastal just gone I’m going to ensure all crew have a PLB attached . We didn’t have any close calls but the conditions just inside cape Brett and onwards to Red head were very marginal . Anyone falling out of the boat would’ve been very hard to find , 100m visibility and very dirty air of 30 plus knots in gusts combined with 3 different swell directions . All clipped in but a plywood deck can only handle so much point loading and 3 of us are 100kg or just under . I think that is a good example of how you can make things safer and that isn't part of the mandatory requirements. PLB's cost about $450 now and have a battery life of 7 years. They are tiny. Very easy to wear / carry on you.
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Post by Cantab on Oct 30, 2023 12:03:00 GMT 12
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Post by DuckMaster. on Oct 30, 2023 12:18:01 GMT 12
It was a Beale ? That sunk at Rakino I think ? Sudden wind change in the middle of a quiet night with 40 plus knots squall ? I know that one. That was dragging an anchor. They hoped onto the islet the boat sunk on, then were lifted off by a helicopter. I'm not sure an incident where they walk ashore supports the mandatory use of liferafts though. It's another example of how fast a boat can sink. Once again, the point you seem to be overlooking is that boats can, and sometimes do, sink very quickly - your position that there's plenty of time to prepare to get into the water is therefore fundamentally flawed. When it happens on a stormy coastal classic evening just off Cape Brett, the crew are going to be spread around. If a crew member was on the toilet at the time or was getting changed then they might nit have there life jacket with them. Personally I would prefer to have the option of deploying a liferaft into the water and trying to get into it than making the dubious Darwinism claim that a liferaft would never of worked and was pointless.
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Post by fish on Oct 30, 2023 13:12:29 GMT 12
I know that one. That was dragging an anchor. They hoped onto the islet the boat sunk on, then were lifted off by a helicopter. I'm not sure an incident where they walk ashore supports the mandatory use of liferafts though. It's another example of how fast a boat can sink. They walked ashore. You are welcome to carry a liferaft if you wish.
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Post by harrytom on Oct 30, 2023 16:18:28 GMT 12
Must carry 6 spare hacksaw blades,that has always been a joke to me,ever tried cutting s/s wire?? bolt cutters/small axe makes more sense. Plbs should be a must.
Never knew about Children having to wear helmets "Fish" makes sense while learning to sail.
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dp
Full Member
Posts: 126
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Post by dp on Oct 30, 2023 20:03:08 GMT 12
Must carry 6 spare hacksaw blades,that has always been a joke to me,ever tried cutting s/s wire?? bolt cutters/small axe makes more sense. Plbs should be a must. Never knew about Children having to wear helmets "Fish" makes sense while learning to sail. I thought the same until we lost a mast at night in a blow. Bolt cutters didnt even look at ss wire under the load of a 60' mast hanging over the side. Hacksaw parted them like butter. If i was racing a big boat now i'd take an angle grinder and a gew cutting blades and batteries
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Post by GO30 on Oct 31, 2023 19:59:42 GMT 12
The safety rules allow solas approved LED/laser flares but there's no such thing as the UN has not approved any led or laser flares under the solas convention. There was one some years back but it was absolute crap and less visible than your average fishing float. It floated so low it could hide behind a ducks wake and had the candela of a wet match in a cyclone.
Me and the Fishy dude have a thing about flares, I think pyros have a very valid place on craft but Mr Fish not so much
I imported a laser flare from the US. It's approved by some US mountaineering outfit which may be some organisation or maybe just a reseller, don't know or care. Anyway I stood on the cliff by Taka Grammer and phoned a mate on Rakino to see if he could see it. He spotted it in milliseconds and reckon it jumped out even with all the city lights around and behind. That was 15km so if I have to use it in vengeance I know if I can hit the cockpit of whatever it'll be seen. It has mini sights on the side, mind you it is from the US and they put sights on babies bottles the crazy wackjobs.
On smaller boats rafts can be more of a hazard then they are helpful. We use ours as ballast and know if we have to pop it there is a 50% chance nothing will happen. Besides I can launch my 2 man 6 separate chamber kayak a shit load faster than I can the raft. From the 'Go' I can have it in the water ready for use inside 5 seconds, when being used as a fill in raft. As you may tell we have way more faith in the kayak than the raft.
The pronblem with rafts is the cost. They are crazy and then the servicing scam kicks in making them even more bullshit, especially so with the abysmal inflation rate they have.
On smaller boats, say 40ft and less a substitute is the smarter move and in all regards.
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