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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2022 11:39:49 GMT 12
I think Fish has it spot on sorry.
The Skipper did not design or build the boat. Professionals did that and they will have done so to the design that was signed off by a Maritime NZ approved engineers and a MNZ approved Surveyor.
But in saying that I am a total believer than in some circumstances MNZ requirements do make boats less safe then they need to be for the crews, which then filters to all the users. I am constantly trying to bring common sense and safety to my small corner of that whole palava. The system is old and dated so thinks old and dated which leads to only old and dated things being acceptable.
So I can believe, not that I want too or have anything of substance to in this specific case, the system could have failed the boat. If it had I do hope MNZ can man up and own that but I doubt they have the balls to do so. If they find fault with them to any degree it's a safe bet to think that will be minimised if mentioned at all, that is the usual go to MO for a Govt Dept.
The boat left too late, no idea sorry but I'm in agreeance with you that is the Skippers call, one of the primary ones skippers have to do.
Accident investigations are a tough balance between finding the facts and "blame storming". Consider one of NZ's worst accidents, Air NZ 901 crash on Erebus, the accident investigator Ron Chippendale said it was pilot error, Justice Mahon said it was Air NZ and its systems that were at fault. I am sure those here who remember that crash will have views on both sides of the fence - mine for what is is worth remains that the pilot was ultimately responsible. The Enchanter tragedy potentially has some similar elements. It may come down to the fact it was in the wrong place at the wrong time, much the same as occurred with Essence. From the description of the wave hit, I doubt if there are too many charter boats of that nature that could have withstood the impact, maybe the Stella or the old Frae. Whilst I doubt it will occur, based on G's view that MNZ may have failed, there could be a case for Worksafe to prosecute MNZ, particularly as under the MOSS system they are the ultimate safety certifier unlike the old SSM where that was by 3rd parties. Highly unlikely of course because the director of MNZ used to be head honcho at Worksafe accident investigates are about compromise, protecting all parties, protecting themselves, and have no teeth Like the bar crossing incident and the wet bus ticket! |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2022 20:16:35 GMT 12
Apparently going to show this Wednesday at 8.40 tv3 cancelled due queen
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Post by Fogg on Sept 25, 2022 7:40:53 GMT 12
Interesting insights: www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/deadly-wave-the-storm-over-the-enchanter-skippers-new-venture/WW3GW54Q6GE2ZN5U4KH7YCQIB4/Evidently, the owner / skipper (Goodhew) was a repeat offender of poor safety practises on the water. Also an aggressive and unsavoury character off the water, apparently not well-liked or respected by many of his industry peers. And numerous complaints to MNZ about his practises resulted in no action. At the end of this enquiry into the Enchanter incident, there obviously needs to be an independent enquiry into MNZ itself, which looks increasingly unfit for purpose. Who will raise that matter? Is this on the radar of any far north politician? Last thought, this is a surprisingly detailed and revealing media article for an ongoing investigation. I’m assuming the Herald consulted it’s legal team before publishing, which means they are probably confident the allegations in this story are grounded in evidence not just heresay. |
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Post by fish on Sept 25, 2022 11:28:18 GMT 12
Interesting insights: www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/deadly-wave-the-storm-over-the-enchanter-skippers-new-venture/WW3GW54Q6GE2ZN5U4KH7YCQIB4/Evidently, the owner / skipper (Goodhew) was a repeat offender of poor safety practises on the water. Also an aggressive and unsavoury character off the water, apparently not well-liked or respected by many of his industry peers. And numerous complaints to MNZ about his practises resulted in no action. At the end of this enquiry into the Enchanter incident, there obviously needs to be an independent enquiry into MNZ itself, which looks increasingly unfit for purpose. Who will raise that matter? Is this on the radar of any far north politician? Last thought, this is a surprisingly detailed and revealing media article for an ongoing investigation. I’m assuming the Herald consulted it’s legal team before publishing, which means they are probably confident the allegations in this story are grounded in evidence not just heresay. That comes across as a balanced article. Can't have been by Stuffed. They have the radio operator and a charter client saying he was good "better than the other cowboys out their", but then they have a number of others saying they'd made formal complaints. Nat Davey, owner of the Florence Nightingale, has a high profile, as he is the star on South Seas Spearo's (TV series). The fact he made a complaint to MNZ 2 months beforehand speaks volumes. And the basis of the complaint is relevant. Taking customers out during a cyclone warning. The other complaint, a group of charterers who were taking him to the disputes tribunal. THey didn't want to go fishing during a cyclone, but he wouldn't cancel the trip and wouldn't refund their deposits. Nat Davey's point that the Enchanter went past two good anchorages, Spirits Bay and Tom Bowling Bay, then cut the corner on North Cape, near a reef where waves were breaking. This is massive. Considering the Enchanter got nailed by a breaking wave in a spot known for breaking waves... As for MNZ. Well. I don't think NZ has any effective regulators. Look at Worksafe and White Island. Worksafe didn't do their job properly. They have publicly apologies for their shortcommings, then are prosecution everyone else. Literally everyone, including GNS - the people that monitor eruptions. I'm fairly sure they were also prosecuting LINZ (or some other administrative organisation with no day to day interaction with White Island. On the same basis, Worksafe should be prosecuting Worksafe. The rescuers are being prosecuted, being the private helo companies that were evacuating survivors post eruption. State rescue organisations got stood down, and all the Westpac rescue choppers got parked up at Whakatane, just leaving everyone on the island, dead and alive. Official rescues were blocked, due to H&S rules, so private individuals did it. Now they are being prosecuted. And that is before we get to Pike River, which was for all practical purposes an unregulated industry. And lets not mention the CAA, we will trigger GO30. Or the drinking water reforms and the situation that led to Havelock North. Effectively the only action the govt are taking to address regulatory shortcommings in NZ is to implement 3 waters. Not exactly going to address the regulatory environment for drinking water, but will create a few other issues... |
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Post by Fogg on Sept 25, 2022 12:23:20 GMT 12
Ok, cool, covering lots of other interesting ground there fish - especially on broader regulatory failings in NZ which could be a while other topic in itself. But for the purposes of this thread let’s try to keep to the specifics of the Enchanter incident and MNZ’s role.
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Post by GO30 on Sept 25, 2022 12:36:58 GMT 12
Oui, who mentioned CAA? As a FYI, I don't mind CAA. Sure they have Govt Dept stupidity installed and we had some biffo over a question in a recent Legal renewal exam. As a whole that Dept I find bearable. Caution gentlemen about taking media as gospel as I know some of what was said, and you have reacted to, varies from what the waterfront goss has been for years, even prior to the incident.
Just like all industries there is jealousy, bitching, bad blood, dodgy shit and of course the ever present 'I do know better's'. The game these lads play can be very big bucks and those who get a record of catching get the bigger bucks easier than those who don't, that does cause friction in the industry and as is the NZ way, tall poppy is alive as well there as it is anywhere else. The area the lads were playing in is one that is fought over. So there is a high chance you maybe reacting to the Aussie coaches opinion of the All Blacks not a NZers, type of a scenario.
How do we know MNZ did not suss, what was the nature of the bitching, did MNZ have enough grounds to warrant a suss, have they on file a lot of bitching by any boat/s, had they sussed previously and found all was good. Was the bitching even worth MNZ looking deeper at? We just do not know. Also we all know it's easy as to sit on safe dry land with hindsite, not so much when you're at the helm on a less than perfect day. So again passing 2 potential spots was due to negligence, deemed not necessary to stop, skipper had been flicked a quiet K to get home today for some reason (which would not be the first time) or numerous other reasons including the customers putting on the pressure. That custy pressure is very very real and happens all the time, I even had it while taking a 1hr coffee cruise from Princess Wharf to Birkenhead and back, the boss of the charter wanted to go to North Head and started offering some nice goodies if I did. We didn't.
To be able to get 3 boats running and doing so for decades does mean one thing, he can't have been the loony some are describing him as or that business and it's duration simply would not have been possible.
MNZ hasn't finished it's sussing, far safer to everyone involved if we wait and suss it's report than using the MSM, the same MSM you constantly bitch about as being less then straight up, as any for of definitive source. If we have issues with the reports findings them we have a genuine target to aim at tearing into people based on a MSM piece that lacks huge is just a tad dubious don't ya think? |
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Post by GO30 on Sept 25, 2022 12:46:47 GMT 12
accident investigates are about compromise, protecting all parties, protecting themselves, and have no teeth Like the bar crossing incident and the wet bus ticket! MNZ identified the most likely cause but couldn't verify it as they can't find the boat. That cause was more likely done by the skipper himself. MNZ can't interview the skipper, he died, so that is also unverifiable.
What are MNZ supposed to do? Dump all their unsupported assumptions on a dead guy who doesn't have the ability to respond to said assumptions? If they did that you'd call them, and quite rightly so, a bunch of Aholes.
Besides, lets assume MNZ is 100% correct and the skippers own actions were the cause of the fuck up. He paid for them with his life, what bigger penalty is there?
It's a tricky game and over the years it's one I have leant to disregard 99% of media reports as they are wrong or simply not or barely supported speculation.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2022 16:55:34 GMT 12
accident investigates are about compromise, protecting all parties, protecting themselves, and have no teeth Like the bar crossing incident and the wet bus ticket! MNZ identified the most likely cause but couldn't verify it as they can't find the boat. That cause was more likely done by the skipper himself. MNZ can't interview the skipper, he died, so that is also unverifiable.
What are MNZ supposed to do? Dump all their unsupported assumptions on a dead guy who doesn't have the ability to respond to said assumptions? If they did that you'd call them, and quite rightly so, a bunch of Aholes.
Besides, lets assume MNZ is 100% correct and the skippers own actions were the cause of the fuck up. He paid for them with his life, what bigger penalty is there?
It's a tricky game and over the years it's one I have leant to disregard 99% of media reports as they are wrong or simply not or barely supported speculation.
The skipper is a live not dead and will facing MNZ Hours later, O'Neill and four others - including the boat's skipper, and charter company founder Lance Goodhew - had been pulled from the water in an extraordinary rescue effort. |
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Post by fish on Sept 25, 2022 20:14:20 GMT 12
Referring to GO30's point about forming opinions based on MSM.
It would be awfully hard for the Herald to get many clicks if the headline was "Tragedy just a freak accident". "Skipper did everything right".
Far easier to get clicks criticising the skipper for continuing to earn a living (buying a new boat). Chuck in some character assination, and off you go with a good Sunday Paper story.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2022 21:04:53 GMT 12
accident investigates are about compromise, protecting all parties, protecting themselves, and have no teeth Like the bar crossing incident and the wet bus ticket! MNZ identified the most likely cause but couldn't verify it as they can't find the boat. That cause was more likely done by the skipper himself. MNZ can't interview the skipper, he died, so that is also unverifiable.
What are MNZ supposed to do? Dump all their unsupported assumptions on a dead guy who doesn't have the ability to respond to said assumptions? If they did that you'd call them, and quite rightly so, a bunch of Aholes.
Besides, lets assume MNZ is 100% correct and the skippers own actions were the cause of the fuck up. He paid for them with his life, what bigger penalty is there?
It's a tricky game and over the years it's one I have leant to disregard 99% of media reports as they are wrong or simply not or barely supported speculation.
MNZ should do a honest investigation, apply the rules and law,and prosecute regardles. The record has to be correct and the victims and wrongly accused exonerated! There is also insurance companies wanting clarity over the cause and fault... |
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Post by em on Sept 26, 2022 10:07:18 GMT 12
Referring to GO30's point about forming opinions based on MSM. It would be awfully hard for the Herald to get many clicks if the headline was "Tragedy just a freak accident". "Skipper did everything right". Far easier to get clicks criticising the skipper for continuing to earn a living (buying a new boat). Chuck in some character assination, and off you go with a good Sunday Paper story. Awesome new phrase there fish ! “Character assination “ 😂 |
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Post by armchairadmiral on Sept 29, 2022 7:16:30 GMT 12
Rush to Judgement.....well guys. Different story from the survivors on TV3 last night. Who to believe ? Media or people who were there ? According to survivors no one was to blame. They had dinner on, still fishing , having a beer .Sounds like a good day after some crap 25 knots heading for anchorage and a big dumper crashed onto them .Sounds like media may have misreported in a rush to condemn the skipper. Certainly I'll take some convincing after seeing that programme that the survivors are not correct. I've had similar experiences with big greenies coming out of nowhere but being on a yacht survived. Didn't like it though
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Post by Fogg on Sept 29, 2022 12:45:15 GMT 12
Didn’t see it but is there an online version available?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2022 19:30:59 GMT 12
Those interviewed gave the impression no bad weather etc.protectibg lance?? Lance has since purchased another vessel and resumed charters.mnz haven't finished yet.
Over the other sight.jon was out there same day/night and gives totally different perspective on weather.he was about 50nm away.if the weather as claimed why was the helicopter battling?? Maybe if further off the coast wouldn't of got wave conditions.still so many unanswered questions.
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Post by em on Sept 30, 2022 6:48:42 GMT 12
It wasn’t such a bad afternoon but a N/NW front came through that night . It wasn’t atrocious but visibility would’ve been bad .
the long period swell and the possible cutting of the corner of the reef at murimotu island just as a set arrived probably has more to do with the mishap than the wind speed
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