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Post by GO30 on Apr 12, 2022 8:16:56 GMT 12
I think you might be being a bit one eyed there though. . But then aren't you, as in a EV owner/driver, being a tad selfish?
Sure you save on fuel costs but at the cost of what to many others both in the production of and the disposal of the technologies used.
I think you can shoot any technology down for many assorted reasons.
To me EV's are like Brian Tamaki, they have their good and also some serious downsides but for a sector of society they do work and work very well. Personally neither would benefit my existence, which currently includes a reasonable amount of shit that is regarded as seriously plant friendly. But there is an irony here in that to do the things I am I do need the assistance of a couple of ICE vehicles as there is no EV's that can substitute.
Tis a strange wee world at times.
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Post by armchairadmiral on Apr 12, 2022 8:17:59 GMT 12
All this environmental stuff,whilst valid,overlooks the main,real and single cause of the earths problems in 2022. With all the science producing food,medical advances preventing disease the poor old earth is overpopulated and that overpopulation is mainly far too compressed into big cities. 8 billion or thereabouts and it seems the earth can only cope with less than half that. One way or t'other nature will set the balance for homo sapiens.
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Post by GO30 on Apr 12, 2022 8:27:04 GMT 12
Nope sorry Admiral, while there is something in that the planet dose have the resources if they could be allocated correctly.
The problem it has is greed along with the constant elevation and praise of it. That is distorting and there's the problem.
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Post by Fogg on Apr 12, 2022 8:50:41 GMT 12
We are facing a population crisis. In the form of a population crash. Anyone who has fallen for the “We are all doomed from overpopulation” message has probably been taken in by the same crowd of activists peddling the apocalyptic “We are all doomed from man-made climate change and modern lifestyles” mantra. To see what’s really happening with population growth see here for a scholarly article from an Oxford researcher: www.anthropocenemagazine.org/2020/07/the-human-population-curve-is-on-the-move/And for a more ‘accessible’ explanation from Jordan Peterson see here: youtu.be/GcA3rI19jYM |
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Post by fish on Apr 12, 2022 9:02:22 GMT 12
All this environmental stuff,whilst valid,overlooks the main,real and single cause of the earths problems in 2022. With all the science producing food,medical advances preventing disease the poor old earth is overpopulated and that overpopulation is mainly far too compressed into big cities. 8 billion or thereabouts and it seems the earth can only cope with less than half that. One way or t'other nature will set the balance for homo sapiens. Isn't that what covid was for? And man, you still complain about that  |
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Post by fish on Apr 12, 2022 9:15:27 GMT 12
I think you might be being a bit one eyed there though. . But then aren't you, as in a EV owner/driver, being a tad selfish?
Sure you save on fuel costs but at the cost of what to many others both in the production of and the disposal of the technologies used.
I think you can shoot any technology down for many assorted reasons.
To me EV's are like Brian Tamaki, they have their good and also some serious downsides but for a sector of society they do work and work very well. Personally neither would benefit my existence, which currently includes a reasonable amount of shit that is regarded as seriously plant friendly. But there is an irony here in that to do the things I am I do need the assistance of a couple of ICE vehicles as there is no EV's that can substitute.
Tis a strange wee world at times.
I'm not really following you on the selfish arguement there. My PHEV has batteries 1-12th the size of a full EV, so subtantially less need for rare earth materials etc. But at the same time, I substantially reduce the amount of "product" that needs to be pumped out of the ground in the far side of the world (lets say Saudi Arabia), shipped to Singapore, refined, shipped to Northland, and then trucked around our road network, just to get my car to go. AND, I got my PHEV without the need for the Ute tax (I disagree with the ute tax). What I am saying with the 'one-eyed' bit, is this thread is lacking balance. The title is EV Farce. EV's work very well in certain situations. Brilliant city commuters. Any good on a farm? about as useful as tits on a bull I would have thought. But here is the flipside, I don't criticise farmers for driving 3l turbo diesel utes. They are using those vehicles for exactly what they were designed for. Same as an EV was designed for doing the same 80km urban commute on a daily basis. Our PHEV has about a 35 km range on EV, and that is perfect for us. All the round tow errands, sports, supermarket etc is on EV. If we need to go further (across the city to visit family) the ICE kicks in. 95% of our trips are EV. Would it be any good on the farm? No, how many 5 seat family wagons would be? I do think it is a bit silly that so many people drive 3l turbo diesel utes to the supermarket for their shopping. Most tradies have utes, when a van would be cheaper and more practical (for tools etc). Sales reps tend to love their utes (instead of the old 3l Holden Commodore). Even real estate agents are driving them now. My point is there are far better horses for courses. And something no-one has touched on, so many people are driving utes when they don't need to, because the IRD make them tax deductible for a business, where 'cars' as seen as a fringe benefit. Isn't this why utes have gone from stripped out work horses to luxury specs with leather sets, dual climate control, best stereo in the business, co-ordinated trim & detailing etc etc. The classic hilux had a bench seat and a seatbelt. You wanted aircon, wind the window down... Strange the the govt would piss about with the ute tax, and not just ask the IRD to widen the tax deductibility on company vehicles? |
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Post by em on Apr 12, 2022 9:46:24 GMT 12
But then aren't you, as in a EV owner/driver, being a tad selfish?
Sure you save on fuel costs but at the cost of what to many others both in the production of and the disposal of the technologies used.
I think you can shoot any technology down for many assorted reasons.
To me EV's are like Brian Tamaki, they have their good and also some serious downsides but for a sector of society they do work and work very well. Personally neither would benefit my existence, which currently includes a reasonable amount of shit that is regarded as seriously plant friendly. But there is an irony here in that to do the things I am I do need the assistance of a couple of ICE vehicles as there is no EV's that can substitute.
Tis a strange wee world at times.
I'm not really following you on the selfish arguement there. My PHEV has batteries 1-12th the size of a full EV, so subtantially less need for rare earth materials etc. But at the same time, I substantially reduce the amount of "product" that needs to be pumped out of the ground in the far side of the world (lets say Saudi Arabia), shipped to Singapore, refined, shipped to Northland, and then trucked around our road network, just to get my car to go. AND, I got my PHEV with the need for the Ute tax (I disagree with the ute tax). What I am saying with the 'one-eyed' bit, is this thread is lacking balance. The title is EV Farce. EV's work very well in certain situations. Brilliant city commuters. Any good on a farm? about as useful as tits on a bull I would have thought. But here is the flipside, I don't criticise farmers for driving 3l turbo diesel utes. They are using those vehicles for exactly what they were designed for. Same as an EV was designed for doing the same 80km urban commute on a daily basis. Our PHEV has about a 35 km range on EV, and that is perfect for us. All the round tow errands, sports, supermarket etc is on EV. If we need to go further (across the city to visit family) the ICE kicks in. 95% of our trips are EV. Would it be any good on the farm? No, how many 5 seat family wagons would be? I do think it is a bit silly that so many people drive 3l turbo diesel utes to the supermarket for their shopping. Most tradies have utes, when a van would be cheaper and more practical (for tools etc). Sales reps tend to love their utes (instead of the old 3l Holden Commodore). Even real estate agents are driving them now. My point is there are far better horses for courses. And something no-one has touched on, so many people are driving utes when they don't need to, because the IRD make them tax deductible for a business, where 'cars' as seen as a fringe benefit. Isn't this why utes have gone from stripped out work horses to luxury specs with leather sets, dual climate control, best stereo in the business, co-ordinated trim & detailing etc etc. The classic hilux had a bench seat and a seatbelt. You wanted aircon, wind the window down... Strange the the govt would piss about with the ute tax, and not just ask the IRD to widen the tax deductibility on company vehicles? We have all terrain tyres on our outlander PHEV and I sometime use it to get around the work farm in 4WD mode …if it had more ground clearance it would be a great farm vehicle . I’m sure the hybrid utes will be very popular when they get here especially as they use a shed load less fuel . a little bit off topic but kind of relevant , the bloke I work for has a couple of pine blocks . My son and I pruned the boundary trees of the 250 acre block last winter . We used two stihl top handle saws for the low stuff and a 4.2m stihl pole saw for the lift pruning . Spent 3 months in there and all the saws were still working at the end of it . Now chainsaws are a very blokey very serious subject out in the regions and you can get laughed out of town for having a particular brand or welcomed to the brotherhood for having a particular brand ….but pruning a block with electric saws is bleeding edge getting run out of town sorta shit round here . the saws were superb , we had 4 batteries each , 2 for the morning and two for the arvo plus a small Honda generator that we would run for 30 mins at smoko on the back of the side by side to charge up spares ready for the next morning . No earmuffs , we could talk with ease and warn each other if a big branch was liable to scone someone . The outlay for the saws was quite substantial but the fuel and 2T oil savings was significant the Honda genny would’ve used 20-30 litres max for the job , 3 saws would use that in 2 days . The other upside is the chains run much slower so the risk of kick back is almost zero . My son went on to work for an arborist an got him onto electric saws , they use them in town , nice and quiet and good for pruning/climbing etc but petrol saws are still a must for the big stuff . |
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Post by em on Apr 12, 2022 10:00:59 GMT 12
I think you might be being a bit one eyed there though. . But then aren't you, as in a EV owner/driver, being a tad selfish?
Sure you save on fuel costs but at the cost of what to many others both in the production of and the disposal of the technologies used.
I think you can shoot any technology down for many assorted reasons.
To me EV's are like Brian Tamaki, they have their good and also some serious downsides but for a sector of society they do work and work very well. Personally neither would benefit my existence, which currently includes a reasonable amount of shit that is regarded as seriously plant friendly. But there is an irony here in that to do the things I am I do need the assistance of a couple of ICE vehicles as there is no EV's that can substitute.
Tis a strange wee world at times.
In a similar situation as you with 60 acres offgrid , animals , Blackwood plantation , large amounts of native bush a too long drive that’s washed out and has creeks appearing in it . We have 3x diesel vehicles /machines , emergency diesel power for long cloudy periods , petrol powered piston water pump , petrol chainsaws , 2T outboards . Abosolutely hanging out for hydrogen power to replace all that shit but happy to use electric in the meantime where possible |
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Post by ComfortZone on Apr 12, 2022 10:05:08 GMT 12
I'm not really following you on the selfish arguement there. My PHEV has batteries 1-12th the size of a full EV, so subtantially less need for rare earth materials etc. But at the same time, I substantially reduce the amount of "product" that needs to be pumped out of the ground in the far side of the world (lets say Saudi Arabia), shipped to Singapore, refined, shipped to Northland, and then trucked around our road network, just to get my car to go. AND, I got my PHEV with the need for the Ute tax (I disagree with the ute tax). What I am saying with the 'one-eyed' bit, is this thread is lacking balance. The title is EV Farce. EV's work very well in certain situations. Brilliant city commuters. This is the key for me, it's about "horses for courses", I certainly agree EV's with a small battery can make alot of sense for city commuting where the average distance travelled in around 30km/day and they do not put too much pressure on the grid for charging. However there seems alot of consumer resistance to overcome. Consider the BMW i3, this looked to be the ideal ride for "environmentally conscious" yummy mummies to deliver the progeny to school and go on the cafe/gym/shopping expeditions. Yet this has not proven to be the case, they remain firmly seated in their X5's/RR's/G class/Q7's and BMW have ceased production of the i3. Fish - what year is your Outlander, and how is the battery standing up? This exchange is perhaps a little concerning and perhaps highlights some of the takeup resistance on EV's www.aa.co.nz/cars/ask-an-expert/faults-reliability-service-and-repair/show/12447/ |
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Post by em on Apr 12, 2022 10:11:36 GMT 12
The BMW i3 is a heap of shit , well the early model was . The ICE motor is a scooter motor only good for emergency situations of short distances at low speed . Haven’t bothered looking at any of the new versions
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Post by em on Apr 12, 2022 10:19:08 GMT 12
We have a ford ranger at work that’s done mid 50 k and the trans is playing up already . Ford can’t “find” anything wrong with it and are kicking the can down the road . Boss is waiting for it to go so he can get a new trans under warranty . All vehicles have issues , modern ones particularly so .
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Post by chariot on Apr 12, 2022 11:22:03 GMT 12
My neighbour has a Ranger. Only 30k and already been in with gearbox problems.
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Post by ComfortZone on Apr 12, 2022 11:36:06 GMT 12
We have a ford ranger at work that’s done mid 50 k and the trans is playing up already . Ford can’t “find” anything wrong with it and are kicking the can down the road . Boss is waiting for it to go so he can get a new trans under warranty . All vehicles have issues , modern ones particularly so . If it is the 6 speed auto, the 6R80 autos are well known for being problematic in Rangers and other vehicles they have been fitted to. Just search the web. The 10 speeds are only just building up km's so not much history there yet. They are not alone, when I was getting an auto service done on my car a couple of months ago go talking with the shop's owner and he said Hiluxes are very profitable problematic as well, OK under normal use but when used for towing 2500kg plus they die pretty quickly |
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EV farce
Apr 12, 2022 12:25:59 GMT 12
em likes this
Post by fish on Apr 12, 2022 12:25:59 GMT 12
I'm not really following you on the selfish arguement there. My PHEV has batteries 1-12th the size of a full EV, so subtantially less need for rare earth materials etc. But at the same time, I substantially reduce the amount of "product" that needs to be pumped out of the ground in the far side of the world (lets say Saudi Arabia), shipped to Singapore, refined, shipped to Northland, and then trucked around our road network, just to get my car to go. AND, I got my PHEV with the need for the Ute tax (I disagree with the ute tax). What I am saying with the 'one-eyed' bit, is this thread is lacking balance. The title is EV Farce. EV's work very well in certain situations. Brilliant city commuters. This is the key for me, it's about "horses for courses", I certainly agree EV's with a small battery can make alot of sense for city commuting where the average distance travelled in around 30km/day and they do not put too much pressure on the grid for charging. However there seems alot of consumer resistance to overcome. Consider the BMW i3, this looked to be the ideal ride for "environmentally conscious" yummy mummies to deliver the progeny to school and go on the cafe/gym/shopping expeditions. Yet this has not proven to be the case, they remain firmly seated in their X5's/RR's/G class/Q7's and BMW have ceased production of the i3. Fish - what year is your Outlander, and how is the battery standing up? This exchange is perhaps a little concerning and perhaps highlights some of the takeup resistance on EV's www.aa.co.nz/cars/ask-an-expert/faults-reliability-service-and-repair/show/12447/Its a 2014. Had 30 something thousand km's when we got it, we've done 10 or 12 thousand in a year or so. I think it is a 12 kW battery. You only have 2/3'rds available for EV, the other third is resevered for hybrid driving. I think the battery capacity was around 75% when we got it. But those numbers are always suspect, you can juice up a battery or what not. For a used import, anything near 80% is good. Ours was an import, choosen to order. Very good way to buy. Choose your colour, age, spec etc and price range. You get an email when something comes up at auction in Japan that suits you, you confirm a maximum bid, in NZD, they handle the shipping, importing, supply with an NZ approved charge cable, English dash and owners manual (still have a Japan stereo, plays music in English though) I can get almost 40kms EV on a good day, but usually mid 30's. Covers most of our trips. The guy in the link sounds a bit precious. Depending on km's, 60% capacity sounds fine. There is only one facility that can change these batteries in NZ, it is in Petone I think, so getting prices to change batteries at Hastings probably includes shipping the car to Welly and back. I think percentage capacity is a bit of a distraction. Actual range when you drive it is what counts. Having the aircon on makes the biggest difference. On my hybrid, having roof racks adds 10% to my fuel consumption. That is the big risk buying direct from Japan. Battery condition is the one thing you can't verify pre-purchase. There is recourse if the condition of the car is greatly misrepresented though. PS, stuff this NZ new thing, Ours cost $27k landed, without the subsidy. That is approx $10k more than the car we would have got if we were just getting another family car, but we have reduced our operating cost and are cashflow positive on it. |
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Post by em on Apr 12, 2022 12:42:57 GMT 12
This is the key for me, it's about "horses for courses", I certainly agree EV's with a small battery can make alot of sense for city commuting where the average distance travelled in around 30km/day and they do not put too much pressure on the grid for charging. However there seems alot of consumer resistance to overcome. Consider the BMW i3, this looked to be the ideal ride for "environmentally conscious" yummy mummies to deliver the progeny to school and go on the cafe/gym/shopping expeditions. Yet this has not proven to be the case, they remain firmly seated in their X5's/RR's/G class/Q7's and BMW have ceased production of the i3. Fish - what year is your Outlander, and how is the battery standing up? This exchange is perhaps a little concerning and perhaps highlights some of the takeup resistance on EV's www.aa.co.nz/cars/ask-an-expert/faults-reliability-service-and-repair/show/12447/Its a 2014. Had 30 something thousand km's when we got it, we've done 10 or 12 thousand in a year or so. I think it is a 12 kW battery. You only have 2/3'rds available for EV, the other third is resevered for hybrid driving. I think the battery capacity was around 75% when we got it. But those numbers are always suspect, you can juice up a battery or what not. For a used import, anything near 80% is good. Ours was an import, choosen to order. Very good way to buy. Choose your colour, age, spec etc and price range. You get an email when something comes up at auction in Japan that suits you, you confirm a maximum bid, in NZD, they handle the shipping, importing, supply with an NZ approved charge cable, English dash and owners manual (still have a Japan stereo, plays music in English though) I can get almost 40kms EV on a good day, but usually mid 30's. Covers most of our trips. The guy in the link sounds a bit precious. Depending on km's, 60% capacity sounds fine. There is only one facility that can change these batteries in NZ, it is in Petone I think, so getting prices to change batteries at Hastings probably includes shipping the car to Welly and back. I think percentage capacity is a bit of a distraction. Actual range when you drive it is what counts. Having the aircon on makes the biggest difference. On my hybrid, having roof racks adds 10% to my fuel consumption. That is the big risk buying direct from Japan. Battery condition is the one thing you can't verify pre-purchase. There is recourse if the condition of the car is greatly misrepresented though. PS, stuff this NZ new thing, Ours cost $27k landed, without the subsidy. That is approx $10k more than the car we would have got if we were just getting another family car, but we have reduced our operating cost and are cashflow positive on it. Ours is 2013 and we very rarely plug it in except for the first year when it lived in Hamilton for a bit . No idea what the mileage is as the wife is out driving it at the Mo . It’s had 4 oil/filter changes and just got a new set of A/T tyres for it after 4.5 years of use . |
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