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Post by eri on Nov 19, 2021 21:05:03 GMT 12
The question of ownership of water has been a minefield for governments for the past couple of decades and continues to be so. Opponents of the Three Waters changes say it is a blatant grab by Maoridom to claim control of the country's water supplies. On the Seabed and Foreshore Act, Clark could afford to ignore the defection from Labour of Tariana Turia because her majority was sufficient. Interestingly, Nanaia Mahuta also voted against that bill but did not quit the party.
This time around, the Labour Māori caucus of 15 MPs have the numbers to insist the Government must listen to them.
A Taxpayers' Union poll showed 56 per cent opposed to Three Waters, 19 per cent in support, and a whopping 24 per cent "unsure". That last figure probably shows the effect of folk being distracted by Covid-19. Once the pandemic is over, expect one hell of a row over all of these issues.
www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/bill-ralston-the-pandemic-has-distracted-us-from-politics/5A7MN2ZLFOLWOEABZIL5OQQAQU/
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3 waters
Nov 20, 2021 8:39:49 GMT 12
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Post by grounded on Nov 20, 2021 8:39:49 GMT 12
There is a lot to this situation and a few local councils are partly to blame.
It started sometime back now. The UN(I think it was them, but please correct me if I have that wrong) made a mandate that there should be a minimum standard of drinking water quality for all Countries to reach.
Then we had the incident in Havelock North where People died. So the Gvt of then said Drinking water mustbe brought up to that minum standard everywhere. Small Councils argued they could no afford to. Larger ones started to implement upgrades.
Fast forward some time and we come to the begining of the current situation.
Nanaia Mahuta, Labor MP and person in charge of this reform sent a memo to all Councils asking for their expected costs to bring water up to the required quality. She was stunned when the tally came back at upto $195 Billion. To be fair, some Councils may have got just a little too greedy here. Maybe. Certainly working on todays costings, some have. But this budget was to be for the next 30yrs and we all know that with inflation and other unknowns, budgets always blow out. Anyway, $195Bill blew Nanaia Mahuta mind. Many smaller areas have no way of covering the costs. So hence the idea of trying to bring it under one umbrella. The idea being that one very large company would have far greater buying power and be able to do the work more economicaly. Both points I and I think many others are saying, yeah-nah, that won't happen.
Add into this arguement, many of the smaller Councils represent large area's of Farming community. And right at the mo, Farmers are trying to oust Labor. So they are sticking it them every way they can.
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3 waters
Nov 20, 2021 8:57:11 GMT 12
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Post by Fogg on Nov 20, 2021 8:57:11 GMT 12
Thanks, that interesting and helpful background context - none of which I was aware of.
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Post by sloopjohnb on Nov 20, 2021 8:59:34 GMT 12
3 Waters may be a good thing BUT handing 50% of the assets to a group of unelected 15%- 17% of the population base is just "Daylight Thief" which is very divisional.
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Post by grounded on Nov 20, 2021 9:48:19 GMT 12
3 Waters may be a good thing BUT handing 50% of the assets to a group of unelected 15%- 17% of the population base is just "Daylight Thief" which is very divisional. Another area People don't understand. The Gvt will not be the owner, so no 17% or whatever. It will be handed to a Private Company. This is where I object the strongest. Gvt should not hand the pot over to a Company of their Choosing. It should be put up for Tender, just like everything else. Another point many do not know. Councils are collectively heading down the track towards being nothing more than Administration. They will employ People like Scientists and Management and etc etc, to give advise, set the rules, collect the rates and RMA costs etc and yet do none of the work. This has been a course for sometime now and some Councils already are well down that path. None (I think its all of them) do rubbish collection for instance. That is all contracted out now. So the 3 Waters was not going to be any different. Except the Citizens said, but this is an asset and you can get your hands off iur assets. It could be argued whether it really is an asset though. Systems have a limited life. So in reality, it is a liability. The pipes can't be dug up and sold off, so that can't be called an asset. When summed up, only what comes out the end of the Pipes is the actual Asset. So what will eventually happen is the new Owner will have to charge for fresh water use AND disposal. The big question is, will Councils drop rates accordingly. And it's a question many are worried about. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2021 10:48:38 GMT 12
So how is 3 waters going to work in the Papakura district. A number of yrs ago the council sold off its water division to a private operator, viola,in pretense of cheaper rates. Now 3 monthly water bills average bill is $260 which has a %80 charge for waste. I think most AK water bills are about $75??
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Post by grounded on Nov 20, 2021 13:21:15 GMT 12
And this is what many are afraid of. I also have to agree. A company is there to make a profit. At the moment, a Council tenders a Job, and winning contractor makes profit on Materials and Labor. In the case of a Company owning the lot, they are going to charge for materials and Labor when working in the network, but that will not create a huge profit for a Company Board and Shareholders/Investors and so on. So they will also charge for the Service of supply and discharge won't they. This is so obvious to all of us and the main issue why we don't want the 3 waters idea to go ahead.
Plus I can't see one huge company getting that much greater buying power than any other large Company here currently.
At the moment, Councils put work out for tender and they usually go with the best quote. To me, who ever can do the best job the cheapest should get the job.
By the way, I was of the assumption that Watercare Auckland were the prefered company. Does anyone know if that is correct, false or just a rumor??
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Post by Cantab on Nov 20, 2021 17:43:29 GMT 12
So a few people? died quite a while ago, none since, from dodgy water.
And this is the best return we can get from our tax dollar towards healthy living?
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Post by grounded on Nov 21, 2021 7:46:09 GMT 12
Actually, there are many areas in NZ that still do not have safe drinkable water, straight out of the supply pipe that is. They have to boil or highly filter the water. One could argue, well thats a solution right there, of course.
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Post by eri on Nov 21, 2021 11:27:27 GMT 12
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Post by armchairadmiral on Nov 23, 2021 18:29:04 GMT 12
I'm from the government and I'm here to help..Remember Max Bradfords electricity 'reforms'. We were all going to be better off ? Yeah right.The electricity market is a rort. This will also have far reaching consequences. A per litre fee to Maori as Jacinderella implements a "redistribution" just like she promised. Didn't define who was going to benefit. Just one example and there's plenty more ,some of which we don't know. Once they drive this through there's not one political party that will have the intestinal fortitude to undo it,despite what National and Act say.Because Labour will dissect the supply ,charges and distribution into such small pieces (like Humpty Dumpty) no one never be able to reinstate back to home Councils. Make no mistake people. Control the water and you control the country. Just another nail in the coffin that NZ ers have voted ,by majority,for
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3 waters
Nov 23, 2021 19:48:29 GMT 12
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Post by Fogg on Nov 23, 2021 19:48:29 GMT 12
I'm from the government and I'm here to help..Just another nail in the coffin that NZ ers have voted ,by majority,for “The 9 most frightening words in the English language” (Reagan ?) Jacinda Govt V1 was a minority wasn’t it? V2 was a majority - mid-Covid elimination - but presumably next time more of a headwind again? |
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Post by grounded on Nov 24, 2021 6:30:41 GMT 12
A couple of you are being just a tad Tin foil Hat'ish with your thinking.
It's not about Control. In fact I say this all the time re all sorts of discussions when someone eventually drops the "control" word into the discussion. The Gvt does not have the Brains to be able to carry out "World Domination" right here in little ole NZ.
I think that if we had a clearer understanding of what the longer term idea the Gvt has on the 3 waters, it might help to alleviate fears. Or it could make them worse of course. The big part missing in the Picture is who the contolling body will be and how they will control it all. I find it interesting (not in a good way) that the Boundaries for each Area is the same as each Iwi Tribe boundary. It does raise suspicion as to why. Could it be possible that the Ownership of the Water will be handed over to Each Iwi group? But I am dangerously close to becoming a wearer of the Tin Foil Hat as well if I am not careful.
And when it comes to minority Gvt and all the discussions around that, this is MMP. MMP has created the Gvt we have and as such, we cannot complain with how a Governing Party is made up. We all had the chance to throw it out several elections back and the majority chose not to. That's a democracy and we have to accept the good, the bad and the ugly points of living in such. Crying about it won't change anything, so we have to learn to live with it.
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Post by armchairadmiral on Nov 24, 2021 7:32:44 GMT 12
Some good points in there G. I hadn't picked up on iwi boundaries.I don't think they are trying to control the world from NZ.Just use it as a stepping stone.. Crying (read protesting) can and has changed many things. This one is too important to gloss over. As you say they don't have the brains....just an absolute majority that is being used as a ramrod
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Post by Cantab on Nov 24, 2021 9:50:35 GMT 12
I'm from the government and I'm here to help..Just another nail in the coffin that NZ ers have voted ,by majority,for “The 9 most frightening words in the English language” (Reagan ?) Jacinda Govt V1 was a minority wasn’t it? V2 was a majority - mid-Covid elimination - but presumably next time more of a headwind again? The Manifesto she was elected in on said nothing about the reforms she is implementing. The Manifesto had plenty on things she is not implementing or failed miserably at. Thats not what most people thought MMP and Democracy was in this country. youtu.be/UNg3Vnfu4PkSome may want to put on their tinfoil hat for that one, but its pretty hard to decide at what point. If you thought that the Government was too stupid to implement anything, don't worry, they have clever powerful people telling them what to do. |
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