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Post by OLD ROPE π on Dec 30, 2022 12:44:40 GMT 12
particularly as Maori are not indigenous to New Zealand Omfg. Stop being such a clown. There has never ever been a shred of physical evidence to support any theory that Melanesian, South American, Egyptian, Phoenician, Celtic or any other people settled New Zealand before the Polynesian. the only clown here if you Jacinda duckmaster hyphen Drwright aka deleted. The Marry bullies have Brain washed Stabcinda and half the idiots of the nation. Marry didn't even sail here! Fuck me..you lash some logs together, pack some mutton birds, and see how far you will get in the ocean. Answer me this... Where did they store fresh water?, How did they even know NZ existed beyond line of sight . Maori are great bullsshitters opps I mean story tellers with the use of the colonists language, and Dosh.
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Post by DuckMaster on Dec 30, 2022 13:59:44 GMT 12
OK, first let's start with the definition of indigenous people... indigenous (people) : of or relating to the earliest known inhabitants of a place and especially of a place that was colonized by a now-dominant group So with the lack of any other real evidence to suggest that Maori were not the first people here, they are the indigenous population. Now to the well documented myth of the Moriori who have been trying to set the record straight for the past 100 years...
Moriori were not in New Zealand before Maori. Moriori was a splitter group of New Zealand Maori that settled in the Chatham Islands between 1300 and 1500. If you like, Moriori are the indigenous people of the Chatham Islands, but given the Chathams are part of New Zealand then that's kind of misleading... The Moriori were a peaceful group of Maori that didn't want to be part of the tribal wars and didn't want to live in bloodshed. They literally packed there bags and went in search of a new place to live. They developed their own culture and were left alone until a british ship called the Chatham found them. There is plenty of hard scientific evidence (including DNA) that shows Moriori came from mainland NZ Maori. The hard core, long standing myth, that Moriori were here first and were displaced by Maori was perpetuated by white colonists as a means to justify there own colonisation of Maori people. Like you, I also grew up completely believing this myth as fact. I think I found out about 20years ago that it was bullshit. I can even remember using this myth as justification for why Maori shouldn't get land back. On to the out of Africa theory
Yes, all humans came out of Africa 200000 - 300000 years ago. Ref the Hawkes Bay evidence
Subsequent carbon dating and subsequent investigations have not been able to verify any theories that NZ was settled by people before Maori. Lots of people have tried, but the physical evidence available just doesn't stack up. There are of course still lots of theory's of possibilities about first settlers, but without any physical evidence, all these are is theories. The origin of MaoriUnlike the Moriori, Maori people didn't just arrive here. Maori was created here in NZ. The Maori culture grew in New Zealand. Over a period of atleast 50 years, canoes of people arrived from East Polynesia (specifically the Society Islands, the southern Cook Islands and the Austral Islands in French Polynesia). Those people become Maori and created the Maori culture. Marry didn't even sail here! Fuck me..you lash some logs together, pack some mutton birds, and see how far you will get in the ocean. Answer me this... Where did they store fresh water?, How did they even know NZ existed beyond line of sight . You really need to do a bit of research before mouthing off. New Zealand was the last significant land mass in the world to be settled. 3000 years before that, Polynesians had figured out how to lash logs together and had sailed east out of Asia and had discovered, New Caledonia, Vanuatu, Fiji, Tonga, Cook Is and French Polynesia... So how do you think they discovered the much larger NZ after already discovering those little islands?
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Post by armchairadmiral on Dec 30, 2022 14:23:55 GMT 12
Yep.Just another contribution to the re written history of R T Rower and ,according to you, that's only taken 20 yrs. Well done. Marry and polynesians somehow must have known where to head to find land. For example how did someone draw that Piri Reis map of Antarctica land mass before Antarctica was "discovered".
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Post by sloopjohnb on Dec 30, 2022 14:31:10 GMT 12
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Post by armchairadmiral on Dec 30, 2022 14:54:19 GMT 12
Yep.They don't count either. Probably a contribution from about 20 years ago. You'll be able to read about it in next years re written NZCEA curriculum. Talk about thread drift but it certainly relates to the BS that we've suffered last few years and will get next year. Lamborghini of your colour choice for election next year. Two if you vote Bimbo and choose red
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Post by OLD ROPE π on Dec 30, 2022 15:43:18 GMT 12
OK, first let's start with the definition of indigenous people...Β indigenous (people) : of or relating to the earliest known inhabitants of a place and especially of a place that was colonized by a now-dominant group So with the lack of any other real evidence to suggest that Maori were not the first people here, they are the indigenous population.Β Now to the well documented myth of the Moriori who have been trying to set the record straight for the past 100 years...Β
Moriori were not in New Zealand before Maori.Β Moriori was a splitter group of New Zealand Maori that settled in the Chatham Islands between 1300 and 1500. If you like, Moriori are the indigenous people of the Chatham Islands, but given the Chathams are part of New Zealand then that's kind of misleading...Β The Moriori were a peaceful group of Maori that didn't want to be part of the tribal wars and didn't want to live in bloodshed. They literally packed there bags and went in search of a new place to live.Β They developed their own culture and were left alone until a british ship called the Chatham found them. There is plenty of hard scientific evidence (including DNA) that shows Moriori came from mainland NZ Maori. The hard core, long standing myth, that Moriori were here first and were displaced by Maori was perpetuated by white colonists as a means to justify there own colonisation of Maori people.Β Like you, I also grew up completely believing this myth as fact. I think I found out about 20years ago that it was bullshit. I can even remember using this myth as justification for why Maori shouldn't get land back. On to the out of Africa theoryΒ
Yes, all humans came out of Africa 200000 - 300000 years ago. Ref the Hawkes Bay evidence
Subsequent carbon dating and subsequent investigations have not been able to verify any theories that NZ was settled by people before Maori.Β Β Lots of people have tried, but the physical evidence available just doesn't stack up. There are of course still lots of theory's of possibilities about first settlers, but without any physical evidence, all these are is theories. The origin of MaoriUnlike the Moriori, Maori people didn't just arrive here.Β Maori was created here in NZ.Β The Maori culture grew in New Zealand.Β Over a period of atleast 50 years, canoes of people arrived from East Polynesia (specifically the Society Islands, the southern Cook Islands and the Austral Islands in French Polynesia). Those people become Maori and created the Maori culture.Β Marry didn't even sail here! Fuck me..you lash some logs together, pack some mutton birds, and see how far you will get in the ocean. Answer me this... Where did they store fresh water?, How did they even know NZ existed beyond line of sight . You really need to do a bit of research before mouthing off. New Zealand was the last significant land mass in the world to be settled. 3000 years before that, Polynesians had figured out how to lash logs together and had sailed east out of Asia and had discovered, New Caledonia, Vanuatu, Fiji, Tonga, Cook Is and French Polynesia... So how do you think they discovered the much larger NZ after already discovering those little islands? Mate you need to get your head out of theorists ass and just get some practical sense of reality... Sailing east in the doldrums ( inter tropical convergence zone) is a dream compared to south into a real ocean. Why didn't the hit Aussie?... I believe the practicality of real life examples (sailors) than some dick at a desk with a Maori bullshitter breathing down his neck... Eg -Ask the Americans about "all those scientists predictions (20 years ago) of global warming! Right now! Dork master. Listen in!... Rather than spouting off from your scientist mates theories just answer these simple questions. Pre text... Stumbling across a few small islands a few miles away is a lot different than sailing 1500nm from the islands into the southern ocean with no knowledge of what's out there, on hollowed out logs strapped together. remember at say 1 knots VMG to NZ over 1500NM would take 1500 hours at best, that 62 days at best, without hitting a southerly storm and no breakages!!! Fucking impossible!.. especially in. A grass skirt and a freeeboard if 24 inches. Questions ( you will ignore) 1. How did they know where to navigate too! 2. How much food do you store inorder to get to an unknown destination over a unknown time frame? 3. What did the store water in to sustain life for (unknown) day. 62 at best 4. What where they navigating too and how... And don't say stars!!! They weren't smart enough! 5.why leave the safety of land to voyage to anywhere without knowing how long it would take and how much resources you would need. 6. A Sailing waka would need to be massive to accommodate everything required to survive a 62 day voyage. 8. I could go on and on .. ... Myth has become reality in your mind, just like the young Maori and the way they have twisted the facts to suit thier greed!... And have not been allowed to be challenged! Marry would have more cred if they just said "we evolved from our land mass breaking away from Australia/ Asia over thousands of years"... Which is what happened and why Maori, asian, and aboriginals etc all have common traits etc
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Post by DuckMaster on Dec 30, 2022 17:44:48 GMT 12
Marry would have more cred if they just said "we evolved from our land mass breaking away from Australia/ Asia over thousands of years"... Which is what happened and why Maori, asian, and aboriginals etc all have common traits etc Omfg. Just wow. You started off with some good questions, that could be answered, and ended with stupidity making any answer completely pointless. Your apparent lack of understanding of New Zealand geology leaves me thinking you're just taking the piss.... I mean you're obviously just taking the piss... Please tell me you are? Tell me you were driving your clown car when you came out with that... Please? I am struggling with where to start.... But in case you are not taking the piss, let me try this.... 1/. The land mass NZ is part of, (Zealandia), broke away from the supercontinent (Gondwana?) over 85 million years ago. 2/ As it moved away it sank into the pacific and became mostly submerged for 40 million years. Maybe only a few islands of the Zealandia land mass remained above sea level but most of Zealandia was and is still under water. 3/ 25 million years ago Zealandia then collided with the Pacific plate and the Australian plate jammed in underneath it pushing modern day New Zealand, and New Caledonia, out of the water. As we've already established, humans came out of Africa ~300 thousand years ago. By which time the Tasman Sea was as deep and as wide as it is today. So, yeah nah bro, there's no fucking way anyone walked here... EVER.
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Post by OLD ROPE π on Dec 30, 2022 18:25:42 GMT 12
Ok dorkblaster lets say you're right. And judging by the lack of answers to my questions and you poor excuse to avoid answering said questions... You haven't a clue.
Explain how they sailed here.
Give me a viable sailing and management plan, vessel type construction and planned course direction.
Detail navigation method, supplies carried, water supply and storage, spares, ...
Do this based on technology of the time, and most of all highlight how they manned and sailed these craft upwind in big seas, how they stayed warm as they headed out of the doldrums, and how they remained hydrated after thier pathetic water supplies ran out And again check out your " likes v mine"!...
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Post by OLD ROPE π on Dec 30, 2022 18:34:31 GMT 12
And who established humans existence v the Tasman's state is correct? the same scientists that invented nuclear fusion, agent orange, global warming, ...
And I didn't say they walked here! I just summised they would have more cred if they said that than sailed here.
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Post by DuckMaster on Dec 30, 2022 18:57:21 GMT 12
So if they claimed that they lived through the Dinosaur age and were here on Zealandia all along when it pushed out of the sea 25 million years ago they would have more cred than somehow claiming they came via a boat which just happens to actually align with the geology of the planet and well established science that humans only walked out of Africa 55000 years ago?
What a stroke of luck that they chose to say the boat rather than something completely unbelievable.
Look mate, if you can not acknowledge that NZ came out of the sea 25 million years ago and therefore there is no possible way that Maori were already here then there's no point continuing the conversation.
If you think there is even a chance that Maori got here any other way than in a boat we're not on the same planet.
I would be surprised if their is another person on this sailing board that believes Maori got here via any means other than boat.
If you acknowledge that they came here via boat and then ask how did they survive journey, then we can continue the conversation.
In the meantime have a read of
Survive the Savage Sea - a family of 5 who lost their boat in the doldrums and survived in a dinghy for 90 days with nothing.
The Rose Noelle - a trimaran that got flipped by a rogue wave half way to Tonga the crew survived 192 days and floated right into Great Barrier on the same currents which the Polynesian came here on.
Two great stories off the top of my head of people who survived at sea without stores and without water by living off the ocean.
Once you acknowledge that Maori actually got here on boats then we can have a conversation about how they did it.
If your starting position is that they were already here, prove to me they weren't, then I am out.
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Post by DuckMaster on Dec 30, 2022 19:23:08 GMT 12
Hey @armchairadmiral
The Punisher is blowing your theory out of the water that Maori weren't first here.
According to him they would of been here all along. Which definitely makes them indigenous.
If nothing else, at least he is acknowledging (indirectly) that they are the indeginous people of NZ.
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Post by OLD ROPE π on Dec 30, 2022 21:19:46 GMT 12
So if they claimed that they lived through the Dinosaur age and were here on Zealandia all along when it pushed out of the sea 25 million years ago they would have more cred than somehow claiming they came via a boat which just happens to actually align with the geology of the planet and well established science that humans only walked out of Africa 55000 years ago? What a stroke of luck that they chose to say the boat rather than something completely unbelievable.Β Look mate, if you can not acknowledge that NZ came out of the sea 25 million years ago and therefore there is no possible way that Maori were already here then there's no point continuing the conversation. If you think there is even a chance that Maori got here any other way than in a boat we're not on the same planet. I would be surprised if their is another person on this sailing board that believes Maori got here via any means other than boat. If you acknowledge that they came here via boat and then ask how did they survive journey, then we can continue the conversation. In the meantime have a read of Survive the Savage Sea - a family of 5 who lost their boat in the doldrums and survived in a dinghy for 90 days with nothing. The Rose Noelle - a trimaran that got flipped by a rogue wave half way to Tonga the crew survived 192 days and floated right into Great Barrier on the same currents which the Polynesian came here on. Two great stories off the top of my head of people who survived at sea without stores and without water by living off the ocean. Once you acknowledge that Maori actually got here on boats then we can have a conversation about how they did it. If your starting position is that they were already here, prove to me they weren't, then I am out.Β fuck you're a moron!!!.. Once you've proved to the world how they sailed here then we can talk . Also, giving examples of modern era sailors with modern equipment surviving at sea (travelling shorter distances) is not the same as Polynesians on logs with grass's skirts. ... FFS rose Noelle, upside down was 100x more seaworthy and livable than a Waka with flax sails... And they had lpg for a while, fishing hooks that worked, and water collection, as well as cans of food.... FFS just tell us how they got here.... Show us the sailing plan! You're a Jacinda clone ... Know the Theory of everything but not a practical brain cell to be found. Also you talk a lot around the topic without talking at it, nor achieving a result. Stupid has a new meaning... Duckmaster!
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Post by OLD ROPE π on Dec 30, 2022 21:35:08 GMT 12
Hey @armchairadmiralΒ The Punisher is blowing your theory out of the water that Maori weren't first here. According to him they would of been here all along.Β Which definitely makes them indigenous. If nothing else, at least he is acknowledging (indirectly) that they are the indeginous people of NZ. wrong Jacinda! According to you. You're fucking deluded if you think we can't see thru your spin. When you read something try and understand what is written and what is spinning around in your disturbed excuse for a brain. Reading so called experts drivel and believing it because you can't think logically for youself is your weakness. How many times did they sail here before they got enough people to sustain a population. When they miraculously landed here what condition were they in How did they get a message back to the others that they arrived an what direction should the next lot head... F F S you a dreaming if you think they randomly drifted here in bare skin, no food, no water, open to the elements, in cold water.... You are a typical gullible naive idiot that needs to actually sail across the Tasman/ pacific and see reality .... Or in other words, turn if your computer, get out of you pyjamas, get out of your parents house and actually do something!
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Post by DuckMaster on Dec 30, 2022 21:55:23 GMT 12
I have given you two examples of people in the modern age who survived without any stores so you can see how it is possible...
The Rose Noelle ran out of all supplies with 130days left on their journey. How do you think they got water and food?
The family who had next to nothing except their dinghy and the clothes on their back survived 90days with no supplies or drinking water. How did they do that?
Polynesian ocean voyaging canoes were 100ft sailing multihulls capable of easily doing 15knots.
They carried supplies in the hulls, fresh water was carried in bamboo, gourds and coconuts. They could also catch and store fresh water from their flax sails when it rained.
They fished and drank the juices from the fish, which, if you'd bothered to check, was the same way that the Rose Noelle crew survived and the family in their dinghy, once their respective life rafts turned into floating reefs.
They sailed upwind (as much as they could with multihulls) when searching out new lands because their preference was to turn and run at maximum speed when they were running low on stores to get back to home quickly.
On the way to New Zealand the Kermadecs was a stepping stone. Archaeology shows that Polynesians used the Kermadecs for resupply. Any tribes that settled their died out.
They carried food, kumara, live chickens, live pigs, fermented meat which would last forever.
The Polynesians that settled NZ came out of the east pacific which places them neatly in the Gyre current which convinently run anti-clockwise across the equator towards New Zealand. Again the same current which bought the Rose Noelle home.
They didn't use navigation to find NZ or any new islands, they found new zealand by luck just like all the other islands.
What they used the stars, sun, moon and planets for was getting home. They always knew which way home was. Their navigation aids weren't for finding new lands, but for getting home, they just went out searching for new lands in a given direction usings the stars to keep their home behind them.
When they got closer to land they would use birds for the final direction. Birds can fly 100km out to sea at sunrise and then head back to land after they fished.
They also followed the migratory pattern of whales which came down the coast of New Zealand. Whales doing 5knots are easy for them to follow.
They used their knowledge of the direction of swells to stay on course. If you have ever sailed from nz to raro in calm conditions you'll know there is an annoying ocean swell which runs the same damn way continuously.
Bounce back waves in the swell can be felt/seen 300km away from land. Sailing home to NZ once these swells became really obvious when we were 200km away. There was suddenly this other little wave coming towards us.
The Polynesian's didn't set out to sail to NZ knowing where it was. They just went in search of land.
The reason they spent so long getting to NZ, Hawaii and Easter Island is because it took them 2000 years to hone their skills travelling East across the equator out of Asia.
They did journeys back to their home, again using the Kermadecs as stepping stones. Navigation was then preserved in song so other captains could follow the song to find new zealand. That's the same way the preserved/recorded directions for all their travel.
They travelled here in about 40 canoes over 50 years. That was how the country was populated.
They came here in boats, the first via good luck Once they found NZ they sailed home and told others, who told others once the word got out the history shows that a fleet of canoes left to populate NZ. Historians have it at 40 - 50 ocean voyaging canoes.
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Post by DuckMaster on Dec 30, 2022 22:14:04 GMT 12
I am curious, are you still sticking to your theory that they got here via some means other than a boat?
If so, what was that means of travel?
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