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Covid
Nov 11, 2021 7:04:48 GMT 12
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Post by Fogg on Nov 11, 2021 7:04:48 GMT 12
It’s an interesting debate and you raise some good points.
In particular, what you’ve highlighted is that the minute you start introducing any kind of filtering criteria in traditional ‘holy grail’ state services like NZ health, then you enter hazardous ethical territory. And I agree it’s unlikely we’ll see NZ follow SG with regards to healthcare cost of Covid patients.
But the reason I highlighted the SG situation is because the current NZ govt HAS already started drawing hard lines between the freedoms & rights of vaxxed vs unvaxxed in many other area:
1. “No jab = no job” in many sectors not just frontline health
2. “If you want to leave Auckland for Xmas get a jab”
3. “If you want to get a haircut / go to a restaurant etc get a jab”
etc
So it has already started in some areas - by “it” I mean the current govt drawing arbitrary lines based on their political & ethical beliefs - and do I was just wondering how far would it go and could it reach access to health services…?
I agree that many of the current govt’s ‘constituents’ would be unfavourably hit by this and we know Labour - and by extension the police - love their ‘crims’ and cut them lots of slack compared to other more law-abiding citizens, but who knows if a new Labour leader might take a tougher stance against unvaxxed gangs for example?
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Covid
Nov 11, 2021 20:27:37 GMT 12
Post by GO30 on Nov 11, 2021 20:27:37 GMT 12
I've been told to bring in No Job No Jab. I am not a doctor and will not be forcing medical procedures on anyone. I've been told not to let un-vaxxed in. I refuse to discriminate and the facts just do not support the danger premise Arden is pushing anyway. I've been told the Govt may mandate I do. We'll end up in court on that one for sure, in about 10 years as the backlog of cases will be significant. I've been told I can't leave Akl unless Vaxxed. Irrelevant as I know how many holes the borders do have and I've used them more than once to leave without going thru a Checkpoint Charlie, even though I do hold 'travel permitted citizen' status. Motorbikes, mud and just sticking one to the Govt if you're wondering why  I've been told I can't go into restaurants unvaxxed, I love that as I can use it to get out of all manner of dross like crap I have to often go too. Besides the majority of those places that will be discriminating are more noticeable for the cost of the food than the food itself. The best yummiest food is street food and the domain of people who just get on and do it rather than piss around trying to out woke the PC brigade. I've been told I can't go to music festivals unvaxxed. That'll be a fun one to enforce when one of the festivals on the cards for next year is on land I own. I've been told I can't go into council buildings unless vaxxed. Just that in itself is a magnificent reason to stay a pure blood. I've been told I can't go into State buildings unvaxxed. If the council wasn't enough then this has to be the deal breaker. The list goes on but quite frankly the soon to be prohibited activities, once Ardern finishes this stage of her segregation plans for NZ society, reads more of a list of good reason no to get vaxxed than it is too get vaxxed. I see the calls asking what if tax/ratepayer XYZ can't use all the public goods they are now banned from then how much will their tax/rates be lowered, are starting. That could be fun to watch if a rich lister has a crack.....and a question I'll raise ever opportunity....just to piss with the cock wombles if no other reason  Fun times ahead, I'm looking forward to it.....possibly with a little too much glee but we'll see. |
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Covid
Nov 12, 2021 5:40:42 GMT 12
Post by Cantab on Nov 12, 2021 5:40:42 GMT 12
Be nice if a sailing "Rich lister" would challenge the overnight ban, amongst other things.
Its all about having reasonable grounds to suspend human rights, the reasonable grounds bit is pretty shaky now.
"the rights and freedoms contained in this Bill of Rights may be subject only to such reasonable limits prescribed by law as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society."
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Covid
Nov 12, 2021 6:52:22 GMT 12
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Post by Fogg on Nov 12, 2021 6:52:22 GMT 12
Be nice if a sailing "Rich lister" would challenge the overnight ban, amongst other things. Its all about having reasonable grounds to suspend human rights, the reasonable grounds bit is pretty shaky now. "the rights and freedoms contained in this Bill of Rights may be subject only to such reasonable limits prescribed by law as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society."
Agree, I’m a big BoR advocate and I do think many of those rights have been dubiously oppressed by some of the antics of the last 18 months or so. In an ironic kind of way, currently each weekend several hundred ‘rich-listers’ (as the public often perceive us) challenge the ruling by going boating overnight! This unofficial challenge has been successful so far by most accounts. |
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Covid
Nov 12, 2021 7:03:10 GMT 12
via mobile
Post by Fogg on Nov 12, 2021 7:03:10 GMT 12
I've been told to bring in No Job No Jab. I am not a doctor and will not be forcing medical procedures on anyone. I've been told not to let un-vaxxed in. I refuse to discriminate and the facts just do not support the danger premise Arden is pushing anyway. I've been told the Govt may mandate I do. We'll end up in court on that one for sure, in about 10 years as the backlog of cases will be significant. I've been told I can't leave Akl unless Vaxxed. Irrelevant as I know how many holes the borders do have and I've used them more than once to leave without going thru a Checkpoint Charlie, even though I do hold 'travel permitted citizen' status. Motorbikes, mud and just sticking one to the Govt if you're wondering why I've been told I can't go into restaurants unvaxxed, I love that as I can use it to get out of all manner of dross like crap I have to often go too. Besides the majority of those places that will be discriminating are more noticeable for the cost of the food than the food itself. The best yummiest food is street food and the domain of people who just get on and do it rather than piss around trying to out woke the PC brigade. I've been told I can't go to music festivals unvaxxed. That'll be a fun one to enforce when one of the festivals on the cards for next year is on land I own. I've been told I can't go into council buildings unless vaxxed. Just that in itself is a magnificent reason to stay a pure blood. I've been told I can't go into State buildings unvaxxed. If the council wasn't enough then this has to be the deal breaker. The list goes on but quite frankly the soon to be prohibited activities, once Ardern finishes this stage of her segregation plans for NZ society, reads more of a list of good reason no to get vaxxed than it is too get vaxxed. I see the calls asking what if tax/ratepayer XYZ can't use all the public goods they are now banned from then how much will their tax/rates be lowered, are starting. That could be fun to watch if a rich lister has a crack.....and a question I'll raise ever opportunity....just to piss with the cock wombles if no other reason Fun times ahead, I'm looking forward to it.....possibly with a little too much glee but we'll see. Hey GO30, I’m curious what your primary motivating factor is to avoid the general flow towards vaxxing (yourself, staff, customers etc)? Knowing you a bit, I suspect that it’s possibly a case of the more ‘they’ tell you you must do something the harder you’ll resist - whatever the issue. Is it that simple? If so, I get that to an extent. As a lifelong, mostly boringly compliant and law-abiding citizen who was brought up to respect the institutions of state, for decades my instinct has been to follow the rules, stay out of trouble and quietly get on with life. But the events of the last 18 months have certainly destabilised those many years of entrenched beliefs & behaviours - to the extent that I find myself looking for ways to ‘resist’ the system in a way that I would never have considered before. All of which has been driven by the nanny narrative of the last few months. Or is your resistance to the vax drive another more health-related stance (you don’t have to answer that of course if it’s getting too personal)?! 😊 |
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Covid
Nov 12, 2021 7:07:16 GMT 12
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Post by Fogg on Nov 12, 2021 7:07:16 GMT 12
I've been told to bring in No Job No Jab. I am not a doctor and will not be forcing medical procedures on anyone. I've been told not to let un-vaxxed in. I refuse to discriminate. Just re-reading this… is that for real? If so, on what basis? You supply chains, ropes & anchors not critical front line health or public services! Have you actually received some kind of legal order to introduce those rules? If so, by whom? I’d love to see it. 😳 Have you got something you can post up here? |
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Covid
Nov 12, 2021 7:20:10 GMT 12
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Post by Fogg on Nov 12, 2021 7:20:10 GMT 12
Here we go… the truth starts to leak out: www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-19-delta-outbreak-ministry-of-health-releases-pre-existing-conditions-of-deaths-linked-to-virus/2PVOFYDPE5TSVJD3J5J2DCVEXM/So 24 out of the 33 deaths from Covid so far had serious underlying health conditions - which all fall under the broad umbrella of metabolic syndrome (high blood pressure, cardio vascular disease, lung disease, diabetes, obesity etc). We’ve known for ages that Covid is primarily a vascular disease not a respiratory disease. And this further confirms it. So if you are vaxxed and otherwise healthy then you have very little chance of serious illness from Covid. But if you are unvaxxed and / or suffering from metabolic syndrome then much higher risk. And yet at 80-90% vax rates we are still locked down and closed off from the rest of the world… |
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Covid
Nov 12, 2021 7:28:29 GMT 12
Post by Cantab on Nov 12, 2021 7:28:29 GMT 12
Looking at the guide for workplace vaccine mandates: www.worksafe.govt.nz/managing-health-and-safety/novel-coronavirus-covid/how-to-decide-what-work-requires-a-vaccinated-employee/I think it is harder to legally mandate than some might think. Several businesses I am close to, who openly said they were looking at mandating, would be hard pressed to justify it under these criteria. I got the impression the government was actually trying to limit its introduction overall and these criteria seem pretty reasonable. The ability to challenge a decision was made very clear. There are other pretty easy basic ways to substantially reduce risk, as is happening already. |
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Covid
Nov 12, 2021 8:17:23 GMT 12
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Post by Fogg on Nov 12, 2021 8:17:23 GMT 12
Looking at the guide for workplace vaccine mandates: www.worksafe.govt.nz/managing-health-and-safety/novel-coronavirus-covid/how-to-decide-what-work-requires-a-vaccinated-employee/I think it is harder to legally mandate than some might think. Several businesses I am close to, who openly said they were looking at mandating, would be hard pressed to justify it under these criteria. I got the impression the government was actually trying to limit its introduction overall and these criteria seem pretty reasonable. The ability to challenge a decision was made very clear. There are other pretty easy basic ways to substantially reduce risk, as is happening already. Those guidelines are very broad and non-specific. Basically they say that if the kind of work you’re doing generates higher risk (to staff and others) than they would experience in the outside world then “consider” a vax mandate. I agree that reading these guidelines I can’t imagine many work places concluding they must be vaxxed. I reckon the high number of workplaces going that route are doing it via voluntary company policy rather than legal requirement. |
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dp
Full Member
Posts: 140
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Covid
Nov 12, 2021 10:28:11 GMT 12
Post by dp on Nov 12, 2021 10:28:11 GMT 12
Yep, going through this process now. Have a staff member that doesn't want to get vax'd at this stage but doesn't want to lose her job. Have other staff saying they won't work with un-vaxed. Have plenty of non-vax'd clients but I'm happy to see them outside the office or evenings (I'm vax'd and don't consider them a threat to me)
We all have our own offices at work but share kitchen, toilets, files and printers, sometimes computers. Our passageways are narrow.
Weighing up the rules as they are, we might struggle to implement the covid passport for staff and clients. But what about the staff that say they won't work with the unvax'd. We have all been together for well over 20 years. I'm pissed that this situation is mine to solve. I turned to the accountants institute but they are washing their hands of it.
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Covid
Nov 12, 2021 11:25:53 GMT 12
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dp likes this
Post by Fogg on Nov 12, 2021 11:25:53 GMT 12
Yup, that’s the recurring theme here, Govt makes vague policy and expects everyone else to work through the painful details. That approach works OK when you know the small details of implementing a broad policy will be painless but not like this when it is obviously going to be painful.
In case it helps, this is the approach my company is taking (and many others in similar professions to yours, DP):
1. Fully vaxxed staff allowed back into the office from 29 Nov.
2. Fully vaxxed staff able to visit client sites (most clients have similar policy of entry for vaxxed only)
3. Non-vaxxed staff able to continue working from home long-term in the same way they have during lockdowns
4. Non-vaxxed staff able to join a frequent testing program (set up by employer) enabling them to enter our office and client offices if a recent negative test.
In other words, vaccination is not being made a condition of employment but only a condition of entry to our offices and client sites.
The argument is that this should keep the vaxxed staff in the office happy enough as they will encounter a small number of unvaxxed people in the general community anyway. And at least the small number they might encounter in the office will have had a recent negative test.
Maybe you could see if your troops would be happy with a similar approach?
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Covid
Nov 12, 2021 14:34:30 GMT 12
Post by Cantab on Nov 12, 2021 14:34:30 GMT 12
Yep, going through this process now. Have a staff member that doesn't want to get vax'd at this stage but doesn't want to lose her job. Have other staff saying they won't work with un-vaxed. Have plenty of non-vax'd clients but I'm happy to see them outside the office or evenings (I'm vax'd and don't consider them a threat to me) We all have our own offices at work but share kitchen, toilets, files and printers, sometimes computers. Our passageways are narrow. Weighing up the rules as they are, we might struggle to implement the covid passport for staff and clients. But what about the staff that say they won't work with the unvax'd. We have all been together for well over 20 years. I'm pissed that this situation is mine to solve. I turned to the accountants institute but they are washing their hands of it. Like WorkSafe says, it becomes an employment relations issue if the other quiz says low risk. The employees who say they will not work with unvaxxed are probably refusing a reasonable request from their employer, let them work from home too? If you try making it mandatory the unvaxxed will complain to employment court, probably successfully, making them work from home probably isn't reasonable either. Giving both the option is reasonable. Engagement is definitely required. Sort of dropped in it by Government but Covid wasn't their fault either, its made life hard in all sorts of ways. The mandating bit is the only issue I have with vaccination. The other measures in place, masks and a bit of distancing are incredibly effective. MOH has stated next to no transmission has occurred in places of interest, its close contacts that transmit. |
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Covid
Nov 12, 2021 16:34:41 GMT 12
Post by ComfortZone on Nov 12, 2021 16:34:41 GMT 12
some interesting links here about vaccines, masking and in particular observations from UK about vaccine impact on the immune system peckford42.wordpress.com/2021/11/11/21-essential-studies-that-raise-grave-doubts-about-covid-19-vaccine-mandates/read and filter as you wish. A scenario which has not been touched on with all this vaccine mandate talk is how those who have tested positive to the WuFlu and recovered are being classified. In reality they are the most protected of all, vaccine or no vaccine, as their immune system has had a taste of the Wuflu and has said, "I don't like you, f*_! off and don't come back as I will be ready for you". The other elephant in the room would appear that there has been a significant refusal amongst the cops to get vaccinated (I know one who is in the "wait and see camp"), no talk of any mandate for them yet if you follow the reasoning for other public facing professions they should be on the list |
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Covid
Nov 12, 2021 18:58:18 GMT 12
Post by dutyfree on Nov 12, 2021 18:58:18 GMT 12
office versus non-office is fine if jobs can be done from "offices".
How do you do a job if you don't use an office and your company wants you to be vaccinated? For example supermarket worker? Been working the whole way through, now your employer says no vaccination, no job?
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Covid
Nov 12, 2021 19:04:32 GMT 12
Post by dutyfree on Nov 12, 2021 19:04:32 GMT 12
As one Professor said, you are all going to get vaccinated in the next year, either voluntarily via a vaccine or involuntarily via COVID. I read a lot of the analysis and I am happy with my decision to get vaccinated. I am equally happy withe people's choice not to get vaccinated. I am unhappy that the government is holding me captive and blaming it on other people for not getting vaccinated. I will be unhappy if unvaccinated people overload the health system and impose costs on the vaccinated. I am more unhappy that the government's incompetence has put us in this position.
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