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Post by fish on Nov 16, 2023 10:07:44 GMT 12
I think most people once they go lifepo4 will be kicking themselves they didn't do it earlier. When I first got mine I hooked it up to our 7kg washing machine and put a full load through. At the end of the cycle I literally heard the battery yawn and go back to sleep. From memory resting voltage was 0.2 less than when it started. I then thought right lets hook you up to the deep freeze in the garage. Everytime I walked past over the next couple of days I could hear the battery snigger and mutter something about what a cushy life it had. The tech is seriously good and is 100years ahead of fla etc PS Sabre, what batteries did you have before your Lithium? Most people really enjoy new batteries after putting up with dead or dieing ones for a while. It's like a human behaviour thing and not much to do with the battery technology. That is assuming you have adequately sized and specified your new battery. I know I was super happy when I swapped out my FLA house batteries like for like. Everything was working great. 2 years later though when resting voltages were dropping and other strange things started happening I was less happy. |
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Post by DuckMaster on Nov 16, 2023 10:37:10 GMT 12
This video of intentionally punctured lifepo4 spewing flame like a flame thrower contradicts your position... youtu.be/07BS6QY3wI8?si=bnM-rdHXsa8vRaG4Fact is, they can overheat, they can burst into flames when punctured. Call me weird but I don't have any plans to intentionally puncture my batteries. Now go find some videos of fla batteries on fire for some ballance. You really are a toxic argumentative troll aren't you. Seriously man you have some major issues. Go get some help. You said: They will not overheat, and they will not catch on fire, even if punctured.
Clearly that's not the case now is it? And therefore these batteries aren't as safe as you claim. |
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Post by DuckMaster on Nov 16, 2023 10:44:59 GMT 12
The guy is literally holding an exploded lifepo4 battery from his solar installation in the video and explaining that the temperature when it was gassing was 275deg... And you call it an old wives tale? Yes the battery didn't burst into flames he is very clear on that. The fire brigade waited for the thing to stop gassing and for the temperature to drop there were no flames. But if that had been on a boat @ 275deg and the boat material would of caught on fire just from the heat. In the video they talk about what could of caused it, was it a faulty charger? Was it a bad cell that had a manufacturing fault? Was it a faulty bms? Bms has temp monitors volt monitor disconnect etc - all the bells and whistles... The scary thing is they have no way of knowing. Bottom line is that these batteries can and do gas and burst. While they don't spontaneously burst into flames, the heat caused from the gassing is enough to start a fire on a boat due to the confined installation nature on a boat. I'm not sure if using one example from youtube is the most compelling arguement. I think it is far more important to understand the technical limitations and what is required to install and set them up properly. Example of an AGM battery fire on a yacht in Gibraltar that was reported in one of the UK sailing magazines (probably Practical Boat Owner I think). Guy got back to his boat post lock-down and obviously needed to charge the batteries. He left the shore powered charger on for FIVE DAYS, cause the battery monitor was out of calibration and telling him they weren't yet at 100%. For some reason, charging the AGM's for five days made them start smoking and emitting fumes and flames. The lesson there is to not blindly rely on one device, or to apply some common sense. As Sabre says, any battery can catch fire. In my view, things happen faster with Lithiums, so it is quicker to fuck something up. For me, the best example is the very little warning a lithium is reaching full charge. It can be charging at full current then, nekminnit, its full and cooking itself. That is a specific technical aspect that needs to be understood by the user. I do worry with even good batts like Enertec, that people are told the BMS is all singing, all dancing, but don't understand wider technical limitations, like uncontrolled load dump impacts on an alternator. Or lack of internal resistance in a battery allowing very high charge current, which can fry cables and switches and what-not. It is not always the battery that starts the fire, but ancillary bits and pieces. Don't disagree with what you are saying. And the video showing the flaming battery is very clear that the chemistry is very very safe and this test results are an outlier. However when people make the claim that " they will not" when they actually can that isn't the same as "it's very very very very very unlikely"... sabre has made the claim that they will not catch on fire even when punctured, evidence shows they can sabre has made the claim they will not overheat - evidence shows that they can |
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Post by em on Nov 16, 2023 10:56:03 GMT 12
If this is the dude you are talking about he’s a muppet . Welding gas right there next to his battery bank and obviously a home install and in his basement for Pete’s sake . The regs here for offgrid installs require a battery compartment away from the house for any battery type . youtu.be/FvUxr4szAV4?si=ypHJbNr29zv1xqMxI didn't watch the whole thing (who would waste 27min of their life looking at some guy's burnt out garage). But at 17min he did say the battery voltages were well out of whack an he should have just disconnected them. I.e. he admits he knew of a problem and did not deal with it. This is a classic case of knowing what you don't know. There were 3 batts? One had a completely different voltage. It shows the fire was caused because the charging system is seeing the collective voltage but one batt is at a higher voltage. That high voltage batt would have over-charged, then overheated and started the fire. The next question is why the voltages were different. Possibly some sort of battery fault. I think EM got some cheap lithium batts off Sunnytech and they had different voltages, so he sent them back. That was when I was looking hard at some cheap lithiums from Sunnytech. The cheaper the lithium battery, the high likelihood the cells aren't balanced. If the cells aren't balanced, one can over charge. If it does that enough it can catch fire. Based on EM's experience, I crossed Sunnytech's cheap batteries off my list. I don't think this is a problem with the technology as such. More an aspect of the cost and quality, AND user knowledge. It is a bit pointless blaming the battery for catching fire when you saw a problem and left it. Linking back to 'knowing what you don't know', DIY installers need to understand EVERYTHING about the battery, set up and operation. You aren't allowed to do the 230v installation in your house, but you can do 100amp DC installations... These batteries aren't just chucking in a couple of AA's and having a cold beer. Yep went for batteries that were 4 times the price and made in Oz but the cells are Chinese . Difference is they perfectly match the cells and build their own BMS . Both my batteries arrived in the box at exactly the same voltage and thats measuring at .1 increments . They are exactly the same voltage after a full charge and exactly the same after a discharge cycle and that’s in parallel . I stopped testing them as it got boringly predictable . I might test them tonight if I remember and report back . |
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Post by fish on Nov 16, 2023 10:57:34 GMT 12
Don't disagree with what you are saying. And the video showing the flaming battery is very clear that the chemistry is very very safe and this test results are an outlier. However when people make the claim that " they will not" when they actually can that isn't the same as "it's very very very very very unlikely"... sabre has made the claim that they will not catch on fire even when punctured, evidence shows they can sabre has made the claim they will not overheat - evidence shows that they can Agreed. Much like saying the jab was Safe and Effective. A fair statement would be to say most vaccines are generally safe, and have a fair degree of effectiveness. Applying categorical statements to new and untested (or very limited tested) products / vaccines (like the Ribonucleic acid one) is foolhardy. I do note that Sabre said you can get any battery to blow up / catch fire if you try hard enough. If your example is the same one EM posted then I put that fire down to operator error. He knew he had different voltages across the cells / batteries and did nothing about it. |
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Post by em on Nov 16, 2023 10:58:40 GMT 12
I'm not sure if using one example from youtube is the most compelling arguement. I think it is far more important to understand the technical limitations and what is required to install and set them up properly. Example of an AGM battery fire on a yacht in Gibraltar that was reported in one of the UK sailing magazines (probably Practical Boat Owner I think). Guy got back to his boat post lock-down and obviously needed to charge the batteries. He left the shore powered charger on for FIVE DAYS, cause the battery monitor was out of calibration and telling him they weren't yet at 100%. For some reason, charging the AGM's for five days made them start smoking and emitting fumes and flames. The lesson there is to not blindly rely on one device, or to apply some common sense. As Sabre says, any battery can catch fire. In my view, things happen faster with Lithiums, so it is quicker to fuck something up. For me, the best example is the very little warning a lithium is reaching full charge. It can be charging at full current then, nekminnit, its full and cooking itself. That is a specific technical aspect that needs to be understood by the user. I do worry with even good batts like Enertec, that people are told the BMS is all singing, all dancing, but don't understand wider technical limitations, like uncontrolled load dump impacts on an alternator. Or lack of internal resistance in a battery allowing very high charge current, which can fry cables and switches and what-not. It is not always the battery that starts the fire, but ancillary bits and pieces. Don't disagree with what you are saying. And the video showing the flaming battery is very clear that the chemistry is very very safe and this test results are an outlier. However when people make the claim that " they will not" when they actually can that isn't the same as "it's very very very very very unlikely"... sabre has made the claim that they will not catch on fire even when punctured, evidence shows they can sabre has made the claim they will not overheat - evidence shows that they can They are all dangerous , remember Steve fossets PlayStation catching on fire off northhead on sea trials cause some muppet hadn’t strapped the batteries down ? That’s a far more likely scenario on a boat than a gamer taking a quarry bar to your battery bank . |
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Post by harrytom on Nov 16, 2023 11:11:47 GMT 12
Lifepof lithium melt apparently rather catch fire or explode.So maybe safer than standard lithium? lifepo4 safety profile is completely different than lithium ion. Electric scooter, bike, car fires are not lifepo4 Potential Dangers Of Using Lifepo4 Batteries The potential dangers of using LiFePO4 batteries are absolutely staggering. Despite their many advantages, such as being lightweight and having a long life cycle, these battery cells can be extremely hazardous if not used correctly. With great power comes great responsibility; it is imperative to understand the risks associated with LiFePO4 in order to use them safely. When it comes to safety hazards, LiFePO4 batteries do carry a risk of explosion or fire - though this is rare when proper precautions are taken. It is important for users to take all necessary steps to prevent any adverse events from occurring during the charging and discharging processes. This includes monitoring temperature levels, ensuring correct polarity connections, avoiding overcharging/over-discharge states, and not shorting the battery terminals by accident. Additionally, always store LiFePO4 batteries in an environment that has adequate ventilation and away from combustible materials like paper or plastics. Common Causes Of Battery Explosions What causes a battery to explode? The answer is complex and can vary depending on the type of battery. In general, however, lithium-ion batteries are more prone to exploding than other types due to their higher energy density and instability when exposed to extreme temperatures or overcharging. This applies particularly to Lithium Polymer (LiPo) and Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePO4) batteries, which have been known to be volatile if not properly handled or stored. Still no one has answered the questionof.Do you ned to notify insurance company as to using this new technology battery in a vessel?Would they pay out or try the modification clause thats hidden in policies. Why am I agreeing with "ducky"?? I think hes on the right track. |
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Post by DuckMaster on Nov 16, 2023 11:13:33 GMT 12
If your example is the same one EM posted then I put that fire down to operator error. He knew he had different voltages across the cells / batteries and did nothing about it. Nope this one: youtu.be/-13tJHDfknI?si=J-L4sZad51tpRsHF |
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Post by fish on Nov 16, 2023 11:22:29 GMT 12
lifepo4 safety profile is completely different than lithium ion. Electric scooter, bike, car fires are not lifepo4 Still no one has answered the questionof.Do you ned to notify insurance company as to using this new technology battery in a vessel?Would they pay out or try the modification clause thats hidden in policies. Why am I agreeing with "ducky"?? I think hes on the right track. I've never known any insurance company to get down to infinite detail on risk. So no, you wouldn't need to notify them if you install lithium. They don't ask if you sail in over 25 knts, drink while sailing, have a heart condition, how often do you go to your boat and check everything, daily, weekly, not at all over winter, etc. Some insurance co's need a survey when taking out the cover, that is the most detail they would get into. They aggregate the risk. If lots of boats start catching fire due to lithium batteries they may then start asking about it. Just like they ask if you are on a swing mooring, cause those boats are generally not maintained and regularly bust off in storms. And loosing the odd boat here and there isn't really an issue for insurance co's, its the big weather events that destroy entire marina's that gets their panties in a knot. I would think that if enough boats had lith battery fires for insurance co's to pay attention, people would start removing lith batteries. But as we know, there are many causes of boat fires. Bad wiring. Gas install issues. Running a still inside. Being a muppet. You still have to put some effort in to get a battery to go bang. |
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Post by Duckmaster. on Nov 16, 2023 12:30:38 GMT 12
You are required to notify your insurance company if the risk profile they have agreed to changes.
Eg, if you signed up with an alluminium mast and you changed it to carbon fibre mast, then the risk profile has changed - it's your responsibility to notify them.
If said carbon fibre mast breaks, holes the boat and you sink, then if you didn't notify them you would likely find yourself uninsured for sinking. If said mast just broke, then I think you could expect not be covered for a replacement mast...
Eg, if you swap your diesel out for electric propulsion, then you could probably expect not to be covered in the event of an electrical/battery fire if you did not notify them
Does swapping out your AGM's for Lithium, and swapping out your dumb charging system for a electronic computer made in Taiwan constitute a change in the risk profile? I dunno... - but probably...
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Post by sabre on Nov 16, 2023 12:37:23 GMT 12
lifepo4 safety profile is completely different than lithium ion. Electric scooter, bike, car fires are not lifepo4 Potential Dangers Of Using Lifepo4 Batteries The potential dangers of using LiFePO4 batteries are absolutely staggering. Despite their many advantages, such as being lightweight and having a long life cycle, these battery cells can be extremely hazardous if not used correctly. With great power comes great responsibility; it is imperative to understand the risks associated with LiFePO4 in order to use them safely. When it comes to safety hazards, LiFePO4 batteries do carry a risk of explosion or fire - though this is rare when proper precautions are taken. It is important for users to take all necessary steps to prevent any adverse events from occurring during the charging and discharging processes. This includes monitoring temperature levels, ensuring correct polarity connections, avoiding overcharging/over-discharge states, and not shorting the battery terminals by accident. Additionally, always store LiFePO4 batteries in an environment that has adequate ventilation and away from combustible materials like paper or plastics. Common Causes Of Battery Explosions What causes a battery to explode? The answer is complex and can vary depending on the type of battery. In general, however, lithium-ion batteries are more prone to exploding than other types due to their higher energy density and instability when exposed to extreme temperatures or overcharging. This applies particularly to Lithium Polymer (LiPo) and Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePO4) batteries, which have been known to be volatile if not properly handled or stored. Still no one has answered the questionof.Do you ned to notify insurance company as to using this new technology battery in a vessel?Would they pay out or try the modification clause thats hidden in policies. Why am I agreeing with "ducky"?? I think hes on the right track. For every article that says they are unsafe there are 10 that say they are extremely safe and far safer than the status quo. This is from the same webpage you posted.. 9. Safety Lifepo4 battery is the safest lithium battery at present, due to its stable chemical structure, it is not easy to spontaneously ignite, and almost never explodes. Although the AGM battery has 150 years of technical support, it still produces a lot of hydrogen, and it is very easy to cause an explosion if the ventilation is not in place or in a high-temperature environment. harveypoweress.com/lifepo4-battery-vs-agm-battery/ |
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Post by sabre on Nov 16, 2023 12:43:15 GMT 12
Call me weird but I don't have any plans to intentionally puncture my batteries. Now go find some videos of fla batteries on fire for some ballance. You really are a toxic argumentative troll aren't you. Seriously man you have some major issues. Go get some help. You said: They will not overheat, and they will not catch on fire, even if punctured.
Clearly that's not the case now is it? And therefore these batteries aren't as safe as you claim. Calm down cupcake. That statement was from the link I posted. Your obsession to try and prove a point is disturbing. |
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Post by fish on Nov 16, 2023 13:39:24 GMT 12
You are required to notify your insurance company if the risk profile they have agreed to changes. Eg, if you signed up with an alluminium mast and you changed it to carbon fibre mast, then the risk profile has changed - it's your responsibility to notify them. If said carbon fibre mast breaks, holes the boat and you sink, then if you didn't notify them you would likely find yourself uninsured for sinking. If said mast just broke, then I think you could expect not be covered for a replacement mast... Eg, if you swap your diesel out for electric propulsion, then you could probably expect not to be covered in the event of an electrical/battery fire if you did not notify them Does swapping out your AGM's for Lithium, and swapping out your dumb charging system for a electronic computer made in Taiwan constitute a change in the risk profile? I dunno... - but probably... Completely changing the mast type or swapping from Diesel to Electric propulsion are both major projects. It is already fairly well established that you need to notify insurance of any major changes. Swapping an AGM house batt for a Lithium, that is a bit more tricky. Regular renewal of consumable items can be viewed as responsible ownership. If the new batts are worth $10k you may want to advise them and update your sum insured. Personally I think the greater risk is not the battery tech (Lithium V AGM) but the quality of the install. Dodgy Temu gear and DIY versus AS/NZS Standards complaint, certified gear etc. You can spend anything from $1k to a first home deposit on Lithium batteries. I guess the question would come about if you did a DIY install and something to do with that lead to a total loss of the boat. That isn't anything to do with Lithium batteries and everything to do with that catch all clause in insurance contracts, how does the wording go? "Actions or inactions of a reasonable and competent person". |
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Post by DuckMaster on Nov 16, 2023 14:26:55 GMT 12
You are required to notify your insurance company if the risk profile they have agreed to changes. Eg, if you signed up with an alluminium mast and you changed it to carbon fibre mast, then the risk profile has changed - it's your responsibility to notify them. If said carbon fibre mast breaks, holes the boat and you sink, then if you didn't notify them you would likely find yourself uninsured for sinking. If said mast just broke, then I think you could expect not be covered for a replacement mast... Eg, if you swap your diesel out for electric propulsion, then you could probably expect not to be covered in the event of an electrical/battery fire if you did not notify them Does swapping out your AGM's for Lithium, and swapping out your dumb charging system for a electronic computer made in Taiwan constitute a change in the risk profile? I dunno... - but probably... Completely changing the mast type or swapping from Diesel to Electric propulsion are both major projects. It is already fairly well established that you need to notify insurance of any major changes. Swapping an AGM house batt for a Lithium, that is a bit more tricky. Regular renewal of consumable items can be viewed as responsible ownership. If the new batts are worth $10k you may want to advise them and update your sum insured. Personally I think the greater risk is not the battery tech (Lithium V AGM) but the quality of the install. Dodgy Temu gear and DIY versus AS/NZS Standards complaint, certified gear etc. You can spend anything from $1k to a first home deposit on Lithium batteries. I guess the question would come about if you did a DIY install and something to do with that lead to a total loss of the boat. That isn't anything to do with Lithium batteries and everything to do with that catch all clause in insurance contracts, how does the wording go? "Actions or inactions of a reasonable and competent person". Well I just rang my insurance company and asked. They said my underwriters (vero) require, that if changing to lithium, because the electrics need to be modified, charging circuit, fusing etc etc and it isn't just dropping in a new battery it is considered a major change and per the Regs it triggers the requirement for an electrical inspection that has to be signed off by a boat electrician and I have to inform them of the work. I asked if it change my premium or excess, they said it would depend on the exact details of the final installation - but possibly. She was obviously reading off a script. She quoted maritime act for recreational boats which states that a major electrical change which they consider a lithium change over to be has to have design approval. There seemed to be some grey area if your boat did not have an ewof and so could not connect to shore power at all, then the regs would not apply to you unless you had a AC generator on board as well. For what I thought was going to be a simple question I was left more confused. Back to my boat sparkies comment - he couldn't recommend it and wouldn't do me a install. But the insurance company were clear as mud: Changing to lithium could be considered major work depending on how many systems it touched and I should probably maybe definitely get electrical sign off from a certified elecgrician and submit it to them for assessment... And if I failed do such and suffered a loss from something they considered to be major work I could find myself without insurance. |
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Post by fish on Nov 16, 2023 14:44:50 GMT 12
Completely changing the mast type or swapping from Diesel to Electric propulsion are both major projects. It is already fairly well established that you need to notify insurance of any major changes. Swapping an AGM house batt for a Lithium, that is a bit more tricky. Regular renewal of consumable items can be viewed as responsible ownership. If the new batts are worth $10k you may want to advise them and update your sum insured. Personally I think the greater risk is not the battery tech (Lithium V AGM) but the quality of the install. Dodgy Temu gear and DIY versus AS/NZS Standards complaint, certified gear etc. You can spend anything from $1k to a first home deposit on Lithium batteries. I guess the question would come about if you did a DIY install and something to do with that lead to a total loss of the boat. That isn't anything to do with Lithium batteries and everything to do with that catch all clause in insurance contracts, how does the wording go? "Actions or inactions of a reasonable and competent person". Well I just rang my insurance company and asked. They said my underwriters (vero) require, that if changing to lithium, because the electrics need to be modified, charging circuit, fusing etc etc and it isn't just dropping in a new battery it is considered a major change and per the Regs it triggers the requirement for an electrical inspection that has to be signed off by a boat electrician and I have to inform them of the work. I asked if it change my premium or excess, they said it would depend on the exact details of the final installation - but possibly. She was obviously reading off a script. She quoted maritime act for recreational boats which states that a major electrical change which they consider a lithium change over to be has to have design approval. There seemed to be some grey area if your boat did not have an ewof and so could not connect to shore power at all, then the regs would not apply to you unless you had a AC generator on board as well. For what I thought was going to be a simple question I was left more confused. Back to my boat sparkies comment - he couldn't recommend it and wouldn't do me a install. But the insurance company were clear as mud: Changing to lithium could be considered major work depending on how many systems it touched and I should probably maybe definitely get electrical sign off from a certified elecgrician and submit it to them for assessment... And if I failed do such and suffered a loss from something they considered to be major work I could find myself without insurance. That sounds about right, exactly what I said ;-) If it's major work then you need to tell the insurance, if its not, you don't. The point being it is more complicated installing lithium than most people realise. You need to do all sorts of other stuff and change the whole charging set up. This tends to make it a major job. That is why I backed away and went with Lead carbon. Very interesting Duckie. Vero underwrite loads of marine insurance in NZ, who is your actual insurer? |
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