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Post by DuckMaster on Nov 22, 2023 9:39:31 GMT 12
Which is why I went for the Lead-Carbon from ivent. I thought for a moment you meant Lead Crystal. That's a goodie but suffers from tricky management. Just spoke to a mate whose deep into this shit and Lead Carbon are different. Lead Crystal is very good but due to tricky charging he's saying their experimenting with boats has not gone well. The charge rate has to be very high and steady, something most boats can't do. So they have bailed out of even suggesting them on recreationals even big ones apparently.
He backed up what Battery Guy said around Lithium terminologies. Many get confused around 'Ion' and 'Iron'.
But as the convo went on he told me the latest theories around battery banks is this. You drop in a 48V beasty, which is the 'go to' voltage in solar (they wanted me to go 48V but everything we have is 12 or 24 so why convert it all the time was my theory) and the like. You then get the 48V system tuned beautifully which should be easy as you are only dealing with one battery and not a cluster which can and has lead to many differing types of clusters. Then all are batteries after that one can run at whatever voltage you like off a DC-DC step down. Doing that means charging is simplified and the bank gets very steady constant unlike the usual up, down race rally and rolled most banks would in boats, many in solar and so on. The downstream batteries would love that steady constant and it would remove the ability to spike which can cause nasty shit i.e flames.
Thinking about it with my limited knowledge has me liking that idea a lot. If I went lithium in rural or marine I'd definitely go that way now, it makes so much more sense in many ways.
He also said due to WTF regulations he is seeing authorities OK the use of Lithium for starting batteries but not allow them as house bank. They are struggling with that.
Also the only 2 approved batteries for Marine under the MNZ system are Mastervolt and Victron (98% sure it was Victron). Both monitor individual cells and to comply your BMS has to monitor down that deep.
The biggest issue they see around lithium is coincidently the same one we see here also "The Internet said..........." i.e. people preferring the information from who the fuck knows on the web rather than people who have done it and live it every day. When getting him to drill down on issues he said the biggest problem most batteries have is the charging system not being matched to the battery chemistry. Coincidently we see the same thing here, people looking at an anchor as an individual item and not as part of a 'system'. Balmar have a 48v alternator for $5500 there seems to be sfa 48v alternators on the market. There's a crowd called safiery in Australia which seems to be repacking the balmar alternator into a $10k package... Oh and then you need to buy a external regulator. Balmar have one of those too for $1200 And then that dc/dc 48/12 so you can run your wind indicators seems to set you back about $600 and they aren't 100% efficient so you are losing energy in the conversion... You can get a 48v 25ah Lithium-ion lfp battery for around $2000 that has exactly the same energy as a 100ah 12v battery. If you had $$ to burn or if you were switching to electric cooking, it would make sense.... Of course you'd need a fuck off bigger battery! Like 100amps. And a 48v/230v a inverter, for 3kva that's another $5000 I can't see how having 48v makes the solution any better... You have added an extra component to go wrong and it's a component that wastes power on the conversion? Enertec marine who is a nz company, unlike victron or Mastervolt claim in there marketing that they meet the NZ standards. Maybe they are making it up? A search of Mastervolt and they don't mention as/nzs anywhere. Victron can't see the standard either. Probably they don't want to actually advertise that they meet the standard cause it would drive up demand? Good that your guy is letting the cat out of the bag. Li-ion lfp battery 48v @ 100amps (4.8kwh) $8000 48volt alternator $5500 External regulator $1200 Dc/dc 48/12 converter $600 Inverter $5000 Gimballed electric oven with induction cooktop $1500?! (They must exist but I can't find one.) Solar looks like fixed charge if you go 48v or 12v - does not appear to be much in the price difference so call that moot... Throwing out the gas and switching to Lithium-ion just isn't in my future...
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Post by GO30 on Nov 22, 2023 10:10:50 GMT 12
I thought for a moment you meant Lead Crystal. That's a goodie but suffers from tricky management. Just spoke to a mate whose deep into this shit and Lead Carbon are different. Lead Crystal is very good but due to tricky charging he's saying their experimenting with boats has not gone well. The charge rate has to be very high and steady, something most boats can't do. So they have bailed out of even suggesting them on recreationals even big ones apparently.
He backed up what Battery Guy said around Lithium terminologies. Many get confused around 'Ion' and 'Iron'.
But as the convo went on he told me the latest theories around battery banks is this. You drop in a 48V beasty, which is the 'go to' voltage in solar (they wanted me to go 48V but everything we have is 12 or 24 so why convert it all the time was my theory) and the like. You then get the 48V system tuned beautifully which should be easy as you are only dealing with one battery and not a cluster which can and has lead to many differing types of clusters. Then all are batteries after that one can run at whatever voltage you like off a DC-DC step down. Doing that means charging is simplified and the bank gets very steady constant unlike the usual up, down race rally and rolled most banks would in boats, many in solar and so on. The downstream batteries would love that steady constant and it would remove the ability to spike which can cause nasty shit i.e flames.
Thinking about it with my limited knowledge has me liking that idea a lot. If I went lithium in rural or marine I'd definitely go that way now, it makes so much more sense in many ways.
He also said due to WTF regulations he is seeing authorities OK the use of Lithium for starting batteries but not allow them as house bank. They are struggling with that.
Also the only 2 approved batteries for Marine under the MNZ system are Mastervolt and Victron (98% sure it was Victron). Both monitor individual cells and to comply your BMS has to monitor down that deep.
The biggest issue they see around lithium is coincidently the same one we see here also "The Internet said..........." i.e. people preferring the information from who the fuck knows on the web rather than people who have done it and live it every day. When getting him to drill down on issues he said the biggest problem most batteries have is the charging system not being matched to the battery chemistry. Coincidently we see the same thing here, people looking at an anchor as an individual item and not as part of a 'system'. Balmar have a 48v alternator for $5500 there seems to be sfa 48v alternators on the market. There's a crowd called safiery in Australia which seems to be repacking the balmar alternator into a $10k package... Oh and then you need to buy a external regulator. Balmar have one of those too for $1200 And then that dc/dc 48/12 so you can run your wind indicators seems to set you back about $600 and they aren't 100% efficient so you are losing energy in the conversion... You can get a 48v 25ah Lithium-ion lfp battery for around $2000 that has exactly the same energy as a 100ah 12v battery. If you had $$ to burn or if you were switching to electric cooking, it would make sense.... Of course you'd need a fuck off bigger battery! Like 100amps. And a 48v/230v a inverter, for 3kva that's another $5000 I can't see how having 48v makes the solution any better... You have added an extra component to go wrong and it's a component that wastes power on the conversion? Enertec marine who is a nz company, unlike victron or Mastervolt claim in there marketing that they meet the NZ standards. Maybe they are making it up? A search of Mastervolt and they don't mention as/nzs anywhere. Victron can't see the standard either. Probably they don't want to actually advertise that they meet the standard cause it would drive up demand? Good that your guy is letting the cat out of the bag. Li-ion lfp battery 48v @ 100amps (4.8kwh) $8000 48volt alternator $5500 External regulator $1200 Dc/dc 48/12 converter $600 Inverter $5000 Gimballed electric oven with induction cooktop $1500?! (They must exist but I can't find one.) Solar looks like fixed charge if you go 48v or 12v - does not appear to be much in the price difference so call that moot... Throwing out the gas and switching to Lithium-ion just isn't in my future... The 48V idea is keeping voltage up over distance so ideal for Solar and similar where the genny maybe some distance from the storage and use. On a boat that's not a worry obviously so possibly more some companies here trying to change the game maybe. Doing that is common, I changed the entire standards of anchor chain NZ uses and a few others, which was a commercial decision, one I do benefit from obviously. On boats maybe higher voltage allows smaller amps so possible safety aspect, guessing a bit there based on electric fences.
I did wonder about conversion loss myself but it'll be so small 99% will never notice I'd think. I step down in rural to 12V to run the pumps. I noticed the other day when both are running that circuit is saying only 12.2v but as that is via a Victron step down so that voltage is solid.
NZ based marine insurance man, a name you'll know, has just told me if I have a boat with a large Lead Acid set up then changed to it a large Lithium set up, he does not regard that as significant enough to have to notify him of the change for insurance purposes. That's the second to say the same thing with a 3rd supporting it while sussing deeper as she's not at 100%.
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Post by DuckMaster on Nov 22, 2023 10:31:02 GMT 12
I can see if I was doing a new build or a gut and refit that Lithium-ion 48v would make a lot of sense.
Much smaller wire. You can buy 48v generators easily. Would be the perfect way to go full electric with a backup genset.
There's 48v sail drives that hydro generate while sailing...
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Post by sabre on Dec 23, 2023 19:46:41 GMT 12
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Post by fish on Dec 23, 2023 20:09:12 GMT 12
From that link: When we are talking about lithium battery boat fires, we are not seeing issues with professionally installed, marine-grade main house bank battery systems. All the critical evidence we have links these boat fires to accessories, tools and toys that are either stored or charged onboard. Many of these tools and household devices are not specifically designed for marine use or a boating environment. We have seen boat fires linked to items left charging onboard and lithium batteries go into thermal runaway when not on charge and stored onboard in cupboards and cabins, which can be hot and salty environments.
There’s no doubt that lithium-ion batteries are an incredible invention, which provide enormous amounts of power for various toys, tools, and devices. However, my personal advice to anybody who uses these lithium powered products onboard their boat would be to never charge them unattended and to not permanently store them onboard. So, if you’re using a drill on your boat, remove it from the boat once you’ve finished with it. Lithium powered tools and toys simply don’t belong in a hot and salty boat environment for extended periods, they are better stored in dry and cool environments onshore. Nobody wants to be one of the unlucky ones who loses their boat to a fire, so not storing or charging these products unattended onboard are simple ways to reduce your risk of that happening.”
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Post by sabre on Dec 23, 2023 20:20:07 GMT 12
Yeah all common sense really. Far more risk from taking your phone, laptop, tablet, power tools etc on board than a properly installed lifepo4 battery. And if you are charging from just solar it is a very staight forward and simple install.
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Post by ComfortZone on Dec 30, 2023 20:26:54 GMT 12
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Post by Fogg on Dec 31, 2023 6:52:13 GMT 12
What would it take to contain such a fire inside a firebox?
Imagine that for high-risk areas, like on boats or ships or aircraft, you had a fireproof box about the size of a shoe box. Big enough for most phones / tablets / laptops. With usb sockets inside.
You simply put your devices inside, close it and switch it on.
With some kind of viewing screen so you can see what’s happening inside without opening it?
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Post by GO30 on Dec 31, 2023 7:26:18 GMT 12
What would it take to contain such a fire inside a firebox? The electric ferries have their batteries are inside steel boxes to slow fire spread (can be read as 'give the people aboard time to bail') should one go rouge.
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Post by ComfortZone on Dec 31, 2023 7:37:25 GMT 12
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Post by em on Feb 19, 2024 13:36:21 GMT 12
This has got me thinking about a lifepo4 switch over in the future . A good summary of a change over from conventional batteries to lifepo4 . svviolethour.com/2023/10/23/lithium-battery-system-install-on-our-sailboat/On a side note I installed one more lifepo4 to bring our bank at home up to 3 batteries . The two original batteries are 20 months old I had to disconnect them to charge the new battery to 100% . Both batteries showed 27.1V at rest with the voltmeter , the new battery tested at 26.02V out of the box which is exactly the same as the original two when they arrived . That’s impressive cell balancing by the manufacturer .
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Post by ComfortZone on Feb 19, 2024 15:17:16 GMT 12
Interesting link, however I don't think this installation would satisfy the requirements on AS/NZS 3004 Part 2 (2014). I can see a problem if the BMS shuts down charge there is the potential for a spike from the alternator and possible solar that would not do your electronics any good. All charge controllers should receive a signal from the BMS to shut down charge, the Wakespeed regulator has this provision. There is also the issue if the BMS shut down due to low voltage everything goes off line. You need to have a back up battery for essential services. I still prefer the installation to have separate charge and draw busses so there is no unnecessary interruption in power supply. You will find all complying installations have a relay/contactor(s) that is opened/closed by the BMS, eg Enertec use something like these: www.bluesea.com/products/category/20/95/ML-Solenoids
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Post by em on Feb 19, 2024 19:03:05 GMT 12
Interesting link, however I don't think this installation would satisfy the requirements on AS/NZS 3004 Part 2 (2014). I can see a problem if the BMS shuts down charge there is the potential for a spike from the alternator and possible solar that would not do your electronics any good. All charge controllers should receive a signal from the BMS to shut down charge, the Wakespeed regulator has this provision. There is also the issue if the BMS shut down due to low voltage everything goes off line. You need to have a back up battery for essential services. I still prefer the installation to have separate charge and draw busses so there is no unnecessary interruption in power supply. You will find all complying installations have a relay/contactor(s) that is opened/closed by the BMS, eg Enertec use something like these: www.bluesea.com/products/category/20/95/ML-Solenoids Very good safety points . If we ever do switch on the boat I would use outback gear like we have at home . It allows you to completey input your own parameters for every charging step . The BMS on our batteries shuts down at 9% low voltage I have the charger set at 20% for shutdown but it has a visual alarm at 30% . Same for over voltage from charging sources it will shut down if the voltage goes over 28.6 volts or current exceeds 60A which is inside the BMS safety margin . agree on the back up battery and I might be dreaming but keeping the start battery and a back up as lead carbon with a seperate solar panel/s and the existing victron controller and keep the alternator on that system too . It seems the alternator is always cluster factor .
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