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Post by BatteryGuy on Nov 18, 2023 10:17:59 GMT 12
You're confusing the atomic particle with the element. An Ion is a positively or negatively charged particle, more specifically a Cation or Anion respectively. Iron is an element with the periodic table with the symbol Fe hence the Fe in LiFePO4 In all batteries, of all types, Ion's move from the Anode to the Cathode when charging and from the Cathode to the Anode when discharging. In a LFP battery, LiFePO4 (Lithium Iron Phosphate) is the Cathode, and the Anode is a metallic graphite material. Then there's an electrolyte, which in LFP is also Lithium salt, that provides a conductive path between the terminals. When charging, or discharging, Lithium-ions move through the electrolyte from the cathode to the anode and vice versa. The energy a LFP battery provides comes from shifting lithium ions between a cathode and anode material. All Lithium batteries are Lithium-ion but the Cathodes are different chemistries, this different cathode material gives them advantages and disadvantages. Eg LiCoO2 batteries found in many mobile phones and laptops, are lighter compared to lfp, pack bucket loads of power compared to lfp, but are way more susceptible to thermal runaway. But they are still Lithium-ion. I'm not confusing anything. You referred to them as lithium-ion phosphate when they are in fact lithium-iron phosphate. Not a biggy though 👍 Not that I can see anywhere in my message? Unless I am blind I did not write the word iron anywhere in the message I sent yesterday that you responded to? Apologies if you found yourself confused by my message. Anyway the fact remains Lithium batteries with the cathode chemistry LiFePO4, which are also known as LFP, or Lithium Iron Phosphate, and sometimes even LFPO - are Lithium-ion batteries. Saying they aren't is like arguing that a tomato isn't a fruit
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Post by DuckMaster on Nov 18, 2023 12:04:16 GMT 12
Why do airlines prohibit the shipping of Lifepo4 batteries if they are so safe? Can only be shipped inside equipment. Only if 30% soc and only if under a specific watt/hr (which equates to less than 1kg). Will not accept transport of any sized battery on its own. Not even a single 30g cell! Are the airlines somehow in cahoots with the lead acid cartel? Try and buy a Lithionics battery, supposedly the bee knees in lfp battery tech and get it shipped via a plane... Not a single airline will carry it... The battery isn't even being used when being shipped! But somehow you believe they are safe on a boat when we are charging them with solar, hydro, wind or alternator. And discharging them with our inverters... Tells me they (and the trolls) know something you don't... Dam your arguments just get more and more tedious to the point of being disturbing. Have a google of what type of battery Boeing use to run their aircraft. Please find me one air freight service that will accept a lifepo4 battery for air freight? I have checked UPS, FedEx, nzposts usa drop box service and a uk drop box service. Not one of them allow a standalone lithium battery to be shipped by air freight. The FedEx site says: Standalone Lithium Batteries are not accepted due to airline restrictions.
Happy for you to show me a air freight service that allows it.... Just cause a plane has it onboard doesn't mean you can send it on the plane... Planes have fuel as well... Pretty sure you can't send a jerry can of fuel on a plane either, no matter how well you pack it... Again you have to seriously ask why have airlines banned the transport of standalone lithium batteries? There must be some reason...
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Post by sabre on Nov 18, 2023 13:24:51 GMT 12
Dam your arguments just get more and more tedious to the point of being disturbing. Have a google of what type of battery Boeing use to run their aircraft. Please find me one air freight service that will accept a lifepo4 battery for air freight? I have checked UPS, FedEx, nzposts usa drop box service and a uk drop box service. Not one of them allow a standalone lithium battery to be shipped by air freight. The FedEx site says: Standalone Lithium Batteries are not accepted due to airline restrictions.
Happy for you to show me a air freight service that allows it.... Just cause a plane has it onboard doesn't mean you can send it on the plane... Planes have fuel as well... Pretty sure you can't send a jerry can of fuel on a plane either, no matter how well you pack it... Again you have to seriously ask why have airlines banned the transport of standalone lithium batteries? There must be some reason... Yet they run the aircraft systems on lithium. I guess you won't be flying anymore given your irrational fears?
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Post by DuckMaster on Nov 19, 2023 7:49:50 GMT 12
Please find me one air freight service that will accept a lifepo4 battery for air freight? I have checked UPS, FedEx, nzposts usa drop box service and a uk drop box service. Not one of them allow a standalone lithium battery to be shipped by air freight. The FedEx site says: Standalone Lithium Batteries are not accepted due to airline restrictions.
Happy for you to show me a air freight service that allows it.... Just cause a plane has it onboard doesn't mean you can send it on the plane... Planes have fuel as well... Pretty sure you can't send a jerry can of fuel on a plane either, no matter how well you pack it... Again you have to seriously ask why have airlines banned the transport of standalone lithium batteries? There must be some reason... Yet they run the aircraft systems on lithium. I guess you won't be flying anymore given your irrational fears? I guess it's because lifepo4 batteries aren't created equally. Just looking around the Web there's all kinds of different types of lfp cells. I guess as a plane manufacture obsessed with safety you'd want to be able to control everything down to the last nut and bolt and the the exact mg of lithium for safety including fire roof containers and the ability to have fire suppression. I am pretty sure that the airline industry knows what they are doing rather than some unqualified Internet battery guru drawing the conclusion that just cause the airlines have a similar battery with a similar name that all batteries must be equal. And it turns out that, if you do a bit of research, even Boeing has had problems with its lithium-ion batteries. In 2013 a fire on a 787 was directly attributed to the Lithium-ion battery overheating. Tells me that if the multi-billion dollar Boeing r&d engine can't get it right there is no hope for a boat manufacturer.
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Post by sabre on Nov 19, 2023 10:21:59 GMT 12
Yet they run the aircraft systems on lithium. I guess you won't be flying anymore given your irrational fears? I guess it's because lifepo4 batteries aren't created equally. Just looking around the Web there's all kinds of different types of lfp cells. I guess as a plane manufacture obsessed with safety you'd want to be able to control everything down to the last nut and bolt and the the exact mg of lithium for safety including fire roof containers and the ability to have fire suppression. I am pretty sure that the airline industry knows what they are doing rather than some unqualified Internet battery guru drawing the conclusion that just cause the airlines have a similar battery with a similar name that all batteries must be equal. And it turns out that, if you do a bit of research, even Boeing has had problems with its lithium-ion batteries. In 2013 a fire on a 787 was directly attributed to the Lithium-ion battery overheating. Tells me that if the multi-billion dollar Boeing r&d engine can't get it right there is no hope for a boat manufacturer. Hey look, yeah I get it. Its all a bit too confusing and scary for you and thats ok. No judgement here bud.
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Post by DuckMaster on Nov 19, 2023 11:15:40 GMT 12
I guess it's because lifepo4 batteries aren't created equally. Just looking around the Web there's all kinds of different types of lfp cells. I guess as a plane manufacture obsessed with safety you'd want to be able to control everything down to the last nut and bolt and the the exact mg of lithium for safety including fire roof containers and the ability to have fire suppression. I am pretty sure that the airline industry knows what they are doing rather than some unqualified Internet battery guru drawing the conclusion that just cause the airlines have a similar battery with a similar name that all batteries must be equal. And it turns out that, if you do a bit of research, even Boeing has had problems with its lithium-ion batteries. In 2013 a fire on a 787 was directly attributed to the Lithium-ion battery overheating. Tells me that if the multi-billion dollar Boeing r&d engine can't get it right there is no hope for a boat manufacturer. Hey look, yeah I get it. Its all a bit too confusing and scary for you and thats ok. No judgement here bud. Not crazy or scary at all. I just listen to the experts... When they tell me a battery tech is as safe as lead acid I will jump right in. Right now that's not the case.
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Post by fish on Nov 19, 2023 11:53:38 GMT 12
Hey look, yeah I get it. Its all a bit too confusing and scary for you and thats ok. No judgement here bud. Not crazy or scary at all. I just listen to the experts... When they tell me a battery tech is as safe as lead acid I will jump right in. Right now that's not the case. Would that be the same experts that said the vaccine was safe?
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Post by sabre on Nov 19, 2023 12:59:33 GMT 12
Hey look, yeah I get it. Its all a bit too confusing and scary for you and thats ok. No judgement here bud. Not crazy or scary at all. I just listen to the experts... When they tell me a battery tech is as safe as lead acid I will jump right in. Right now that's not the case. Who is they? Are you referring to yourself? There are a lot of other "theys" that have already said Lifepo4 is one of the safest battery tech available. Lithium-ion is of course a different story. The risk of thermal runaway is well documented and personally I wouldn't have on my boat (other than phone/powertools etc ) Most "Theys" however, acknowledge the fantastic safety profile of Lifepo4. But hey you stick with your LA's that off-gas poisonous, corrosive and explosive gases and need replacing every couple of years if thats what you are comfortable with and makes you "feel" safe.
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Post by DuckMaster on Nov 19, 2023 13:13:34 GMT 12
Not crazy or scary at all. I just listen to the experts... When they tell me a battery tech is as safe as lead acid I will jump right in. Right now that's not the case. There are a lot of other "theys" that have already said Lifepo4 is one of the safest battery tech available. Lithium-ion is of course a different story. The risk of thermal runaway is well documented and personally I wouldn't have on my boat (other than phone/powertools etc ) There was one thing I have learned from this thread, it's that lfp batteries are Lithium-ion batteries. And now the second thing I have learned is you know nothing about lithium batteries and should not be trusted to give advice.
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Post by sabre on Nov 19, 2023 14:10:55 GMT 12
There are a lot of other "theys" that have already said Lifepo4 is one of the safest battery tech available. Lithium-ion is of course a different story. The risk of thermal runaway is well documented and personally I wouldn't have on my boat (other than phone/powertools etc ) There was one thing I have learned from this thread, it's that lfp batteries are Lithium-ion batteries. And now the second thing I have learned is you know nothing about lithium batteries and should not be trusted to give advice. And I have learned that you are more interested in winning an argument and trying to prove a non existent point with ridiculous arguments and bizarre irrelevant examples than exploring the possibility that you may have inadvertantly lumped lifepo4 in with the same safety profile of Lithium-ion.
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Post by em on Nov 19, 2023 14:17:44 GMT 12
Who would’ve thought battery chemistry was such a flammable topic
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Post by DuckMaster on Nov 19, 2023 14:41:15 GMT 12
There was one thing I have learned from this thread, it's that lfp batteries are Lithium-ion batteries. And now the second thing I have learned is you know nothing about lithium batteries and should not be trusted to give advice. And I have learned that you are more interested in winning an argument and trying to prove a non existent point with ridiculous arguments and bizarre irrelevant examples than exploring the possibility that you may have inadvertantly lumped lifepo4 in with the same safety profile of Lithium-ion. I don't know why your trying to convince others to use such a dangerous battery chemistry. Let's see: Needs specialised charging equipment if charging from multiple sources Needs complex circuitry and balancers to keep it safe and stop it going venting gas Fire suppression systems have been developed especially for this tech cause when it goes wrong it's so bad Boeing with their gaz-billion dollar r&d budget have even had fires from lithium batteries on planes
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Post by sabre on Nov 19, 2023 14:54:23 GMT 12
And I have learned that you are more interested in winning an argument and trying to prove a non existent point with ridiculous arguments and bizarre irrelevant examples than exploring the possibility that you may have inadvertantly lumped lifepo4 in with the same safety profile of Lithium-ion. I don't know why your trying to convince others to use such a dangerous battery chemistry. Let's see: Needs specialised charging equipment if charging from multiple sources Needs complex circuitry and balancers to keep it safe and stop it going venting gas Fire suppression systems have been developed especially for this tech cause when it goes wrong it's so bad Boeing with their gaz-billion dollar r&d budget have even had fires from lithium batteries on planes This post says it all in a nutshell. Everything you say is mis and disinformation. This is why Jacinda wants to censor the internet.. its all your fault.
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Post by DuckMaster on Nov 19, 2023 14:57:38 GMT 12
I don't know why your trying to convince others to use such a dangerous battery chemistry. Let's see: Needs specialised charging equipment if charging from multiple sources Needs complex circuitry and balancers to keep it safe and stop it going venting gas Fire suppression systems have been developed especially for this tech cause when it goes wrong it's so bad Boeing with their gaz-billion dollar r&d budget have even had fires from lithium batteries on planes This post says it all in a nutshell. Everything you say is mis and disinformation. This is why Jacinda wants to censor the internet.. its all your fault. Which part is misinformation?
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Post by GO30 on Nov 19, 2023 15:00:36 GMT 12
Why do airlines prohibit the shipping of Lifepo4 batteries if they are so safe? Can only be shipped inside equipment. Only if 30% soc and only if under a specific watt/hr (which equates to less than 1kg). Will not accept transport of any sized battery on its own. Not even a single 30g cell! Are the airlines somehow in cahoots with the lead acid cartel? Try and buy a Lithionics battery, supposedly the bee knees in lfp battery tech and get it shipped via a plane... Not a single airline will carry it... The battery isn't even being used when being shipped! But somehow you believe they are safe on a boat when we are charging them with solar, hydro, wind or alternator. And discharging them with our inverters... Tells me they (and the trolls) know something you don't... Dam your arguments just get more and more tedious to the point of being disturbing. Have a google of what type of battery Boeing use to run their aircraft. I do the the phrasing of that first sentence, harsh and not that sure it's how I'd call it but it is amusing.
I just spoke to 3 long time commercial pilots and not one of them knew what all the batteries on nthe specific aircraft they fly use but all 3 did use the terms 'varies' and 'system dependant'. Those aircraft have many batteries as they have huge redundancy with mirrored systems. That lines up with what I know from being an interested but not commercial pilot. Each aircraft model has specific parameters and they can vary quite a bit inside the major designation variants i.e. a 777-400 verses a 777-900 type thing. To change a aircrafts 'standard equipment list' is huge so they tend to run with 'if it's not broken don't touch'. That's aircraft wide not just the big n heavies, I also have to learn each different aircraft I fly and that incudes the basics of eachs electrical system. luckily most I use are similar. Yes there is a test.
All 3 pilots when asked about carrying lithium said - not happening on aircraft that carries passengers. Anything carried with passengers is looked at before putting in the hold for batteries and they do find many all of which are removed from the baggage prior to loading. As a wee aside I've travelled for enduro rides with mates and every time one of the muppets has lost a camera or laptop as they put them in their checked luggage, at the other end was only a note saying naughty and sorry but we've taken it, you don't get it back. Flight crews when walking up and down the aircraft are keeping an eye out on the lockers for signs of nasty, mainly smoke. That is why lithium onboard is limited to 20,000ma on a few airlines but generally only 16,000ma max or as I found out in Beijing airport security screening they have a 13,000ma limit, luckily my 16,000 bank was well used so the capacity had rubbed off or I would have lost it.
Boeing has had a few aircraft issues including 2 written off due to lithium fires.
And sorry but Fedex, DHL and others do fly lithium around the place. But they do so in dedicated aircraft with 0 passengers and they set some very strict restrictions and shit around how they do, packaging and stuff like that. They also only fly to specific airports I found out very recently when a mate who buys batteries of many chemistries for a company you'll all know. He had a shipment sit for a few weeks until a slot opened at Sydney that corresponded with a slot in Auckland a few hours later. Something to do with minimising the time the batteries are onboard the aircraft as they can only fly into Akl and Chch apparently. No idea why but my guess would be ground handling restrictions and/or on port storage. Some loom at lithium like they look at Stainless, some sort of wonder product but both have issues and downsides alongside their goodness. But there is a place for both used wisely and for lithium that will be growing but like many new technologies these days they get thrown out into the market without adequate testing and rely on us poor shmucks to find the faults for them. Lithium is at that stage. In situations that will make people nervous and rightly so, in others those same people will be fine with it. Like me, I have lithium on one boat and I'm sort of OK with it but know it's benefits, the one I wanted is the light weight bulk storage (I have 20kg of Lithium which is equal to 78kg of LA) come with real life issues I'll need to keep an eye on. In rural I elected for gel rather than lithium as they do the same job so why use a tweaky technology when an old plonker will do the same thing. I have recently changed one of my bikes to lithium, mainly due to no LA available.
I chatted to my insurance broker last week and asked "If I change my boats battery from LA to Lithium does the industry regard that as a significant enough I'd need to inform my insurance company I have done so?'. He is a boatie and long time in the industry. He thinks not and on pondering seemed to get a little more sure you don't but did say he's never checked but will for us this week. I have asked another long time boat wise broker the same question, I'll let you know what they say.
It's a interesting topic but like many when talking products with hidden magic, full of well intentioned but still misinformation.
Oh and none of the aircraft I fly have lithium, not even the worlds most produced C172 but I believe it maybe an option on new aircraft.
Not sure if irrational is the right word but you do have a reason to be concerned, not that we can do much about it bar being observant or you possibly even know, they do keep it quiet. Probably best I don't detail it here but lets just say aviation security is very concerned and has stopped a couple of attempts already. It's moved on from C4.
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