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Post by GO30 on Nov 16, 2023 17:52:19 GMT 12
Some lithium chemistries are safer than others but all are dangerous if installed, charged or used wrongly. Also due to the number of cells there is an increased risk of manufacturing errors. Also due to the support systems complexity is increased and that comes with the possibility of more errors. Also due to all the lectronics they systems are more fragile than older school systems.
I'm working with a mob who have developed a Lithium fire suppression system which has recently been approved by Lloyds Register and DNV, which is near unique. To get those approvals is massive and they are all based on observed real life testing so I tend to believe Fifi4, LR and DNV.
Lithium batteries have a far higher failure rate than older chemistries. Some of those failures have, do and will result in fires. Facts are facts people.
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Post by DuckMaster on Nov 16, 2023 19:49:04 GMT 12
Lithium batteries have a far higher failure rate than older chemistries. Some of those failures have, do and will result in fires. Facts are facts people. Careful there... |
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Post by DuckMaster on Nov 16, 2023 19:56:56 GMT 12
I'm working with a mob who have developed a Lithium fire suppression system which has recently been approved by Lloyds Register and DNV, which is near unique. To get those approvals is massive and they are all based on observed real life testing so I tend to believe Fifi4, LR and DNV. Not really practical for a small boat tho. If you're gonna add 110kg of fire suspression system to save on lead acid, you're doing it wrong... Lol. www.fifi4marine.com/product/ |
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Post by fish on Nov 16, 2023 20:06:30 GMT 12
I'm working with a mob who have developed a Lithium fire suppression system which has recently been approved by Lloyds Register and DNV, which is near unique. To get those approvals is massive and they are all based on observed real life testing so I tend to believe Fifi4, LR and DNV. Not really practical for a small boat tho. If you're gonna add 110kg of fire suspression system to save on lead acid, you're doing it wrong... Lol. www.fifi4marine.com/product/And if it turns out you need 2 or 3 DC-DC chargers in parallel to get the high charge current into Lithium (to get the fast charge times) along with 110kg of fire suppression systems, perhaps Lithium isn't such a great option after all. |
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Post by ComfortZone on Nov 16, 2023 22:26:15 GMT 12
And if it turns out you need 2 or 3 DC-DC chargers in parallel to get the high charge current into Lithium (to get the fast charge times) along with 110kg of fire suppression systems, perhaps Lithium isn't such a great option after all. There is no reason not to fit alternator output directly to a Li battery bank as long as you set it up properly. Very good feature in BNZ a few years ago on this that wasn't just advertorial boatingnz.co.nz/better-batteries/Key parts to this guy's installation that were a little different to standard practice were: 1. Having separate load and charge busses 2. Using a "make before break" relay to divert the charge from the Li battery to a Lead Acid, to avoid frying the alternator diodes If I was considering a Li installation I would follow his installation in principle, with the addition of an extra "essential services" battery for navigation instrumentation/comms/nav lights etc so if the Li battery was cut off by the BMS you still have a power supply to keep you going |
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Post by em on Nov 17, 2023 6:50:11 GMT 12
And if it turns out you need 2 or 3 DC-DC chargers in parallel to get the high charge current into Lithium (to get the fast charge times) along with 110kg of fire suppression systems, perhaps Lithium isn't such a great option after all. There is no reason not to fit alternator output directly to a Li battery bank as long as you set it up properly. Very good feature in BNZ a few years ago on this that wasn't just advertorial boatingnz.co.nz/better-batteries/Key parts to this guy's installation that were a little different to standard practice were: 1. Having separate load and charge busses 2. Using a "make before break" relay to divert the charge from the Li battery to a Lead Acid, to avoid frying the alternator diodes If I was considering a Li installation I would follow his installation in principle, with the addition of an extra "essential services" battery for navigation instrumentation/comms/nav lights etc so if the Li battery was cut off by the BMS you still have a power supply to keep you going Yes an extra LA is what I was thinking too for navs and comms . Good article and we felt the same with our household bank of top notch German LAs that lasted only 4 years that took most of the day to charge . The LifePo4s are done by midday or 2.5 hours on generator charge . |
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Post by DuckMaster on Nov 17, 2023 7:21:20 GMT 12
There is no reason not to fit alternator output directly to a Li battery bank as long as you set it up properly. Very good feature in BNZ a few years ago on this that wasn't just advertorial boatingnz.co.nz/better-batteries/Key parts to this guy's installation that were a little different to standard practice were: 1. Having separate load and charge busses 2. Using a "make before break" relay to divert the charge from the Li battery to a Lead Acid, to avoid frying the alternator diodes If I was considering a Li installation I would follow his installation in principle, with the addition of an extra "essential services" battery for navigation instrumentation/comms/nav lights etc so if the Li battery was cut off by the BMS you still have a power supply to keep you going Yes an extra LA is what I was thinking too for navs and comms . Good article and we felt the same with our household bank of top notch German LAs that lasted only 4 years that took most of the day to charge . The LifePo4s are done by midday or 2.5 hours on generator charge . Funny. I know that boat, hadn't seen the article. Shortly after fitting that system there electrical system failed completely and they couldn't do anything. If I recall they had to hard wired the winches to the lithium batteries so they could get back to opua. I think the phrase 'probably overcomplicated the solution" was banded around... They were really happy they had the lithium cause it meant they had ample power to run the boat, even tho they couldn't access it without bypassing all the magic and couldn't charge it... |
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Post by GO30 on Nov 17, 2023 8:48:07 GMT 12
I'm working with a mob who have developed a Lithium fire suppression system which has recently been approved by Lloyds Register and DNV, which is near unique. To get those approvals is massive and they are all based on observed real life testing so I tend to believe Fifi4, LR and DNV. Not really practical for a small boat tho. If you're gonna add 110kg of fire suspression system to save on lead acid, you're doing it wrong... Lol. www.fifi4marine.com/product/Highly practical. 1 - There are smaller units no bigger than a 4kg dry power, the system is very scalable. 2 - It's better than what is in use and being built into boats as I write this, which is basically a steel box to delay the inevitable and giving the crew/passengers time to jump overboard.
Lithium is like Stainless Steel in having people think it can do all manner of magical stuff when in reality all they are doing is falling for very good marketing. It has a place but it's got some big limitations and some serious safety issue to bare in mind.
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Post by fish on Nov 17, 2023 9:00:36 GMT 12
And if it turns out you need 2 or 3 DC-DC chargers in parallel to get the high charge current into Lithium (to get the fast charge times) along with 110kg of fire suppression systems, perhaps Lithium isn't such a great option after all. There is no reason not to fit alternator output directly to a Li battery bank as long as you set it up properly. Very good feature in BNZ a few years ago on this that wasn't just advertorial boatingnz.co.nz/better-batteries/Key parts to this guy's installation that were a little different to standard practice were: 1. Having separate load and charge busses 2. Using a "make before break" relay to divert the charge from the Li battery to a Lead Acid, to avoid frying the alternator diodes If I was considering a Li installation I would follow his installation in principle, with the addition of an extra "essential services" battery for navigation instrumentation/comms/nav lights etc so if the Li battery was cut off by the BMS you still have a power supply to keep you going I think the same technical issues still apply to connecting Li direct to the alt. This would be another legit solution, but the same point applies as for DC-DC chargers, you need an extra component / hardware. Having extra stuff adds cost, but it also adds something else to fail. Noting you still need a lead battery to dump the load to (assuming no-one will move away from lead batteries for starting). At the end of the day Lead-Carbon gave me the same benefits as Li with a far less complicated install, less risk and less cost. Reading the first two para's of that article, their main problem with lead batteries were slow charge time and I assume sulphation / battery degradation due to being held at partial state of charge. The lead-carbon address both of those, in that they can accept 30% (C30) charge current, and they are tolerant of partial state of charge. Yes, there is still a charging tail, but because they are tolerant of partial state of charge you only need to get them up to 80% or 90% ish, you just need to consider that in the available capacity when sizing the batt capacity. Yes, they are heavier than lithium, but on the average cruising boat that is not a factor, provided you can lift them to install them. Oh, and the install isn't so complex you feel compelled to carry a whole redundant battery system (spare battery for essentials). |
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Post by fish on Nov 17, 2023 9:17:39 GMT 12
And if it turns out you need 2 or 3 DC-DC chargers in parallel to get the high charge current into Lithium (to get the fast charge times) along with 110kg of fire suppression systems, perhaps Lithium isn't such a great option after all. There is no reason not to fit alternator output directly to a Li battery bank as long as you set it up properly. Very good feature in BNZ a few years ago on this that wasn't just advertorial boatingnz.co.nz/better-batteries/Key parts to this guy's installation that were a little different to standard practice were: 1. Having separate load and charge busses 2. Using a "make before break" relay to divert the charge from the Li battery to a Lead Acid, to avoid frying the alternator diodes If I was considering a Li installation I would follow his installation in principle, with the addition of an extra "essential services" battery for navigation instrumentation/comms/nav lights etc so if the Li battery was cut off by the BMS you still have a power supply to keep you going PS, what would be the advantage of a 'make before break' over a DC-DC charger? I assume it would mean you could run much high charging current without the current limitation of DC chargers. In the article they were running a 165amp alt, which is just silly big. They rightly identified that most of the time it was doing less than 25 amps. My alt is 75amp and the new lead carbons are 300 ah, meaning in theory they can take 90 amps. I'm only ever seen them take 25-30 amps max (not counting the start batt). But then I only use about 25 amp/hrs a day, so we never get into massive charging currents. |
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Post by DuckMaster on Nov 17, 2023 11:37:05 GMT 12
Not really practical for a small boat tho. If you're gonna add 110kg of fire suspression system to save on lead acid, you're doing it wrong... Lol. www.fifi4marine.com/product/Highly practical. 1 - There are smaller units no bigger than a 4kg dry power, the system is very scalable. 2 - It's better than what is in use and being built into boats as I write this, which is basically a steel box to delay the inevitable and giving the crew/passengers time to jump overboard.
Lithium is like Stainless Steel in having people think it can do all manner of magical stuff when in reality all they are doing is falling for very good marketing. It has a place but it's got some big limitations and some serious safety issue to bare in mind.
Great! The smallest unit they have on there product page is 100kg. Please advise where 4kg lithium suppression units can be obtained? |
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Post by sabre on Nov 17, 2023 12:14:49 GMT 12
I am quite bemused with all the hand wringing over the safety of Lifepo4 batteries and I am still convinced many of you are confusing lithium-ion batteries with lithium-ion phosphate. Heres a good article and a snippet that seems very appropriate.. Internet trolls pollute the Internet like cigarette butts pollute city sidewalks and gutters. You know who I’m talking about, the undereducated know-it-all who enters any conversation regarding lithium iron phosphate batteries in a Facebook group or boating forum and starts with; “The only people looking at lithium iron phosphate batteries are the ones who want their boat to blow up”. Let’ cut out the BS right now. LiFePo4 and LiCoO2 (Boeing) are about as different as water and gasoline in terms of resistance to burning/exploding. While LiCoO2 and LifePo4 are both Li-Ion batteries, the chemistries are vastly different in terms of safety. Let’s not forget Flat-Earthers still exist too… When you see these trolls politely ignore them &, as the internet goes, “don’t feed the trolls“.. marinehowto.com/drop-in-lifepo4-be-an-educated-consumer/ |
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Post by GO30 on Nov 17, 2023 12:39:04 GMT 12
Highly practical. 1 - There are smaller units no bigger than a 4kg dry power, the system is very scalable. 2 - It's better than what is in use and being built into boats as I write this, which is basically a steel box to delay the inevitable and giving the crew/passengers time to jump overboard.
Lithium is like Stainless Steel in having people think it can do all manner of magical stuff when in reality all they are doing is falling for very good marketing. It has a place but it's got some big limitations and some serious safety issue to bare in mind.
Great! The smallest unit they have on there product page is 100kg. Please advise where 4kg lithium suppression units can be obtained? Calm your roll fella, this is new technology being used in new technology so the learning curve is near vertical. Fifi have a lot in the pipeline coming on stream as fast as they can. Obviously the thrust is to protect ships ferries aircraft asap. You'll be trickle down  The system is surprisingly simple in storage and delivery, it's all about the secret herbs and spices being delivered. In theory you could have a pocket sizes extinguisher, maybe one day they will.
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Post by GO30 on Nov 17, 2023 12:49:21 GMT 12
I am quite bemused with all the hand wringing over the safety of Lifepo4 batteries and I am still convinced many of you are confusing lithium-ion batteries with lithium-ion phosphate. Heres a good article and a snippet that seems very appropriate.. Internet trolls pollute the Internet like cigarette butts pollute city sidewalks and gutters. You know who I’m talking about, the undereducated know-it-all who enters any conversation regarding lithium iron phosphate batteries in a Facebook group or boating forum and starts with; “The only people looking at lithium iron phosphate batteries are the ones who want their boat to blow up”. Let’ cut out the BS right now. LiFePo4 and LiCoO2 (Boeing) are about as different as water and gasoline in terms of resistance to burning/exploding. While LiCoO2 and LifePo4 are both Li-Ion batteries, the chemistries are vastly different in terms of safety. Let’s not forget Flat-Earthers still exist too… When you see these trolls politely ignore them &, as the internet goes, “don’t feed the trolls“.. marinehowto.com/drop-in-lifepo4-be-an-educated-consumer/You're putting your faith in a made specifically to drag in money affiliate website written by who the fuck knows against the entire airline safety machine, shipping safety machine and lets not mention all the rest of real life evidence out there? That's a big call dude.
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Post by sabre on Nov 17, 2023 13:15:42 GMT 12
I am quite bemused with all the hand wringing over the safety of Lifepo4 batteries and I am still convinced many of you are confusing lithium-ion batteries with lithium-ion phosphate. Heres a good article and a snippet that seems very appropriate.. Internet trolls pollute the Internet like cigarette butts pollute city sidewalks and gutters. You know who I’m talking about, the undereducated know-it-all who enters any conversation regarding lithium iron phosphate batteries in a Facebook group or boating forum and starts with; “The only people looking at lithium iron phosphate batteries are the ones who want their boat to blow up”. Let’ cut out the BS right now. LiFePo4 and LiCoO2 (Boeing) are about as different as water and gasoline in terms of resistance to burning/exploding. While LiCoO2 and LifePo4 are both Li-Ion batteries, the chemistries are vastly different in terms of safety. Let’s not forget Flat-Earthers still exist too… When you see these trolls politely ignore them &, as the internet goes, “don’t feed the trolls“.. marinehowto.com/drop-in-lifepo4-be-an-educated-consumer/You're putting your faith in a made specifically to drag in money affiliate website written by who the fuck knows against the entire airline safety machine, shipping safety machine and lets not mention all the rest of real life evidence out there? That's a big call dude.
Yeah nah plenty of evidence everywhere you look that lifepo4 is very safe and the only "evidence" of risk is antedotal including some youtube video of a guy apparently whacking a battery with an axe. |
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