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Post by GO30 on Nov 22, 2024 10:46:30 GMT 12
I'm a huge fan of shooting. Non-toxic, no bykill or off-target species hit. Accept for all that lead left lying around the environment. And what are all the combustion byproducts in the gunpowder? Arsenic? And what else? You may possibly have blinkers on if you say shooting is non-toxic. Far more options than just lead these days. Polymer, steel and I saw some 'salt based' a few weeks back, very short range for small varmits with minimal damage if you miss. Arsenic, in the projectile and I believe there is none in the gunpowder, would be looking to find Dodos in the more common rounds these days, maybe still some in speciality of slow to move manufacturers. Bring back the bounties. I remember as a pimply on Waikato dairy keeping the bunny tails which were then traded in for more ammo at the local council. Bunnies were harder to find back then. Here in rural lately we are currently seeing some HUGE bunnies and bloody big Hares. Don't know why they are so big but it makes them easier targets. I'm use steel in my 12G shotties, I wonder if they do steel 410? |
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Post by fish on Nov 22, 2024 10:58:28 GMT 12
Oh yes, definitely splitting hairs. Saying shooting is non-toxic is an absolute statement. In reality it is a relative statement. Shooting is far less toxic than 1080, but it is also far less effective. That was where I was going with that. In many areas of the country, shooting pests is like shooting fish in a barrel. Hence why they can get 10,000 goats in a comp. I'd argue that a fair few recreational hunters like going into areas where the pest / target species are thick on the ground, they can blast away like Rambo and post massive death piles on Social Media. I'd argue the reality is hunting in those areas makes no appreciable difference to conservation outcomes. If there are a million goats out there, shooting 10,000 of them makes no real difference. That, and like a law of physics, hunters only hunt in areas they can access. Overall I'm agnostic about 1080. I can see clearly why people would be opposed to it. I've done a multi day trip through Whanganui National Park (conservation area, what ever) after a 1080 drop and the entire bush was dead. But at the same time, you can't tell me you can shoot or trap rats and stoats. It just doesn't happen. I can see the benefits of 1080 in properly isolated and remote areas. I can also see it is fraught with issues anywhere near where people live. The issue is all the grey areas in between. A good mates missus works for DoC and is involved with 1080 programmes, specifically she has worked on the sub antarctic island programmes (which was possibly the million dollar mouse job). In those environments you are kidding yourself if you think you can rid the island of all pests without something like 1080. I think in those areas and many similar mainland areas the benefits justify the risk. Stewart Island is a tad controversial, I get that, I don't have a view on that. I would say that the example that no other country uses 1080 is a bit of a non-issue. NZ is the only country with a conservation estate and ecosystem like ours. No other country has ground dwelling birds like ours, and infact, most countries are where our pests came from, our pests are native to those countries. Ever tried clubbing a possum to death in Australia? if you did, I'd bet a good bottle of whisky you didn't put in on Facebook and get loads of likes and encouragement. |
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mihit
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Post by mihit on Nov 22, 2024 11:46:00 GMT 12
; Accept for all that lead left lying around the environment. And what are all the combustion byproducts in the gunpowder? Arsenic? And what else? You may possibly have blinkers on if you say shooting is non-toxic. Where does lead come from? I think you'll find it's pretty inert when left "lying all around the environment" And that most of it is going into the targets anyway. There's also bismuth and steel for the shotties, and monolithic copper projectiles for rifles, but again. Lead isn't and never has been much of a problem "in the environment" |
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Post by fish on Nov 22, 2024 11:59:01 GMT 12
Accept for all that lead left lying around the environment. And what are all the combustion byproducts in the gunpowder? Arsenic? And what else? You may possibly have blinkers on if you say shooting is non-toxic. [/quote] Where does lead come from? I think you'll find it's pretty inert when left "lying all around the environment" And that most of it is going into the targets anyway. There's also bismuth and steel for the shotties, and monolithic copper projectiles for rifles, but again. Lead isn't and never has been much of a problem "in the environment"[/quote] Lead comes from bullets, shot from guns. Shotguns normally. So how come all the socially responsible hunters are changing out from lead options to steel or other options? They have slightly inferior shooting qualities, so they aren't changing out for performance. Edit - no idea what is going on with the quote formatting. |
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mihit
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Post by mihit on Nov 22, 2024 12:19:47 GMT 12
In many areas of the country, shooting pests is like shooting fish in a barrel. Hence why they can get 10,000 goats in a comp. I'd argue that a fair few recreational hunters like going into areas where the pest / target species are thick on the ground, they can blast away like Rambo and post massive death piles on Social Media. I'd argue the reality is hunting in those areas makes no appreciable difference to conservation outcomes. If there are a million goats out there, shooting 10,000 of them makes no real difference. Again this is where we need shared goals. If scorched-earth total eradication is it, then we need to work out the most effective way of that. BUT there's a very viable argument put forward by domestic hunters, and tourism operators, to profitably manage wild populations of deer, sheep, goats. I've spent more than a little bit of time in various bushes that are lousy them, and bush that is managed as predator free. I don't believe the damage they do is alarming, and yeah, when word gets around there's mobs out there, then the boys go in for a bomb up. in that repect populations are managed/controlled. Not eradicated. Again, what's the goal? I don't give a toss about ducks, but the amount of time effort and money duck hunters have put into habitat creation/restoration and predator eradication is worth a mention too. I'd also argue that kai should be available freely in public bush (I refuse to call it DOC land, because really doc should just be kaitiaki for te whenua, not dictators to them) However I accept that the long held tradition of sailors releasing animals onto lands for food is a bit outdated. But if we can't or wont work on getting the kukupa and kiwi populations up to where they can be hunted for food...then what? "Good for the goose"... if you're going to litter it all through the bush, why not everywhere? If it was effective, why has the requirement not declined over time? Is there any evidence that endemic or naturalised species population has increased in areas nuked with 1080 in/for the last 60 years? Or other "conservation outcomes" have been achieved? I'm no more opposed to 1080 than other vertebrate toxins, it's the aerial dispersion that gets my goat. You can absolutely trap rats and stoats Pretty sure tiritiri matangi, tawharanui and te motuoihenga didn't use aerial poison. Also wellington or christchurch have a waterfront sanctuary? Wasn't presented as an example, just a fact. And for making the point of the money-go-round nature of it's production. |
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mihit
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Post by mihit on Nov 22, 2024 12:25:29 GMT 12
Lead comes from bullets, shot from guns. Shotguns normally. So how come all the socially responsible hunters are changing out from lead options to steel or other options? They have slightly inferior shooting qualities, so they aren't changing out for performance. Edit - no idea what is going on with the quote formatting. I think you'll find lead actually comes from the earth  Shotguns over waterways have been required to transition to "non-toxic" shot by legislation enacted at the behest of some whiny pearl clutching doogooder type. Based on very little evidence, mostly out of england where the population density is higher and every man has at least 5 shotguns and they all share two ponds the size of cattle troughs. I believe. SOME hunters have been transitioning to mono copper bullets in the belief that lead contaminates the meat around the bullet hole. Some have been eating wild-shot rabbit, turkey, deer, pig etc for 7+ decades. |
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mihit
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Post by mihit on Nov 22, 2024 12:29:37 GMT 12
If you had two glasses full of water, one with a lead ball at the bottom, and one with a 1080 pellet...
Which do you think is going to do more harm?
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mihit
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Post by mihit on Nov 22, 2024 12:40:25 GMT 12
. I'm use steel in my 12G shotties, I wonder if they do steel 410? Pretty sure they do, and it will be a legal requirement before too many more seasons. But you're really running out of puff especially if you can't run the longest shells. |
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1080 Drops
Nov 22, 2024 14:26:29 GMT 12
via mobile
Post by Fogg on Nov 22, 2024 14:26:29 GMT 12
Some African countries have been using similar bounty system for years.
When I was living in Zim on & off, the Govt sold hunting licenses to wealthy big-game tourists - typically Americans - and it was damn expensive, something like USD$50k for a 2-week permit to kill one animal eg elephant.
If they didn’t get their animal there was no refund.
The local guides & game reserves would make a ton from providing the guided hunting service in addition to the government license fee.
The revenue from culling excess elephants was invested into anti-poaching for protected species eg rhinos.
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Post by fish on Nov 22, 2024 15:29:05 GMT 12
mihit , you are doing well in explaining the resistance to 1080. A lot of it is people that want bush meat. Basically people wanting a free meal. BUT, all your examples are around goats / pigs / deer. Not sure how you get rid of rats, possums, ferrets, stoats, mice et al? If you say lead isn't an issue, I assume don't want to use shotguns on the rats, so will you be using a 50 cal or some other high powered rifle on the little varmints? Wont those completely trash the bush all around the rat? Your arguement is nothing to do with conservation values. Although you do have a valid point around joined up objectives for the conservation estate. Some people want to avoid degradation of the environment from pest animals, others want a free dinner and don't care about the scorched earth those animals leave on the environment. Example being Kawau being utterly devoid of undergrowth because of wallabies. With your example strawman or two glasses of water, it sounds like you are ignorant of the toxicity of lead. So it comes from the earth? Almost all toxic things come from the earth in one way or another, arsenic is right next to lead. When it comes down to it, a lot of the resistance to 1080 sounds like it is all about to bush meat, rather than conservation values. We saw a similar issue with the great shitfight about the Thar cull, noting Thar are sport rather than meat, but it is the same clash of conservation values.
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dp
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Post by dp on Nov 22, 2024 16:01:57 GMT 12
trapping or shooting as a viable alternative for 1080 on the coromandel peninsula is laughable. I fly over it all the time and acutely aware that if i crashed i'd probably never be found.
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Post by fish on Nov 22, 2024 16:17:41 GMT 12
This survey from the Deerstalkers Association just popped up on my socials. A little spooky cause I don't follow the Deerstalkers and haven't ever had anything from them pop up before. Very predictably, the hunters are strongly opposed. The white tailed deer population is a popular target. And, almost like my computer is spying on me, amongst all the angst filled comments is a wee little dingdong about what is more toxic, 1080 or lead (from hunters guns). I can see the Stewart Island job is going to be highly controversial, to say the least. I haven't done a deep dive into the unintended consequences of 1080, and like I said earlier, I am largely agnostic about it - I don't have a strong vested interest either way. That said, it the angle is they are targetting rats, cats and possums, and any by-kill is not intended. I would go for a deep dive into facts on that, but I have a funny feeling if I google anything, my PC will explode and I will get sucked into a crazy vortex of mis and dis-information from all sides. My go check if I've finally caught Harold the rat with the traps outside our back door. www.surveymonkey.com/r/WW9WWGT?fbclid=IwY2xjawGs42FleHRuA2FlbQIxMAABHTEHZwFfMLjurLH7ig07fFgD42BMIh96GjDaib7_5IVFKLec3xRVPIZCwg_aem_n3gst9wFltZxvakPvWTqrQ |
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mihit
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Post by mihit on Nov 22, 2024 17:31:15 GMT 12
mihit , you are doing well in explaining the resistance to 1080. A lot of it is people that want bush meat. Basically people wanting a free meal. BUT, all your examples are around goats / pigs / deer. Again, I'm not entirely anti-1080. I am anti aerial-bombardment. Someone else bought goats and other pest species up. They're related to the overall topic of pest control in that They're the most obvious off-target kills from aerial 1080, and other groups have an interest in them as a resource, rather than "pest" Would it be your position that all animals introduced after a certain year should be removed? What year? Can we include in the "pest" count, the animals that bought the animals, and their decendants? "Free meal" is a bit of a cheap shot. Given how much is spent on utes and guns and permits and gear and dogs and vets etc. Very much a flow-on benefit to the community. And as mentioned like africa, if they were managed as a trophy animal for people interested in such, they could bring in a lot of overseas $ too. Possum was sold as meat to asia for a while. I believe it was mismanagement of TB killed that. It's still used as pet food. Potentially exists a market with halal/kosher/indian communities. Rabbit is still very good eating. Leaving cats, mustelids and rodents under the label "pest" 60 years of aerial 1080 hasn't seemed to do it, eh? Now you're just being silly, but I'll roll with it. Obviously a 10ga shotgun for rodents, 3 1/2 shells with 2oz of sparrow shot, this will obliterate the things and distribute them as blood-and-bone fetiliser, mixing it in with treemulch on the way. It would be a huge boon to the forest floor litter and mycellium networks. Not "conservation estate" PUBLIC LAND. I've asked ya several times for what you reckon should be the agreed objective. I'm not sure what you think my argument is here specifically? I find that "some people" who want to avoid degredation of the environment, live hypocritical lifestyles that would seem to belie that. They also seem to facebook-qualified-experts who think meat grows on plastic trays and have never planted a tree in their life. Not all of them of course, but probably the loudest ones. OK so even kill all the wild food. These people now need meat. Eat ze bugs? Or drive into town to get it from the environmentally friendly diesel powered monocolture herb-and-pesticide, vaccine and antibiotic rich farming system? Or something else? Isn't kawau private? And the wallabies protected for some reason? Put them on the menu at the yachtclub. Not at all ignorant. I work with a bit of lead, molten and otherwise. Cyanide is also natural. My argument here pretty much in it's entirely, is that shooters, despite 2 world wars and several other good efforts, will never put enough lead in the environment in any form where it poses a health/environmental hazard. If you have data to the contrary I'll happily review. Yep, there's for sure that. There's also the nuclear effect you(?) noted on your bushwalk after a 1080 drop. It doesn't kill only target, or only "pest" species. It's also illegal to poison mammals, pest or not. And that baksheesh govt arangement of it's manufacture. And the risk of bioaccumulation in the foodchain for endemic/natives. |
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Post by harrytom on Nov 22, 2024 17:47:04 GMT 12
1080 a evil tool but necessary. It may kill indiscreetly. Having seen the work of 1080 at a DOC camp Brokenhills,Paaunui side. closed for 3 months but now the bush is alive with bird songs. The bush/hill inaccessible in places by foot so what other option is there?
One of the biggest threats to birds nesting is the hedgehog(killed plenty along with magpies)Hedgehogs can climb trees and get in to nests,now I have shot at least 4 magpies we are now getting tui/was eye etc in the backyard.
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Post by fish on Nov 22, 2024 19:09:31 GMT 12
Sorry mihit , there is a bit much there for me to respond to coherently, and I haven't worked out how to use the multi-quote tool. Anyway. Could you explain why you are happy with 1080 but not aerial bombardment? What is the problem with that? As an aside, my mate's missus is a specialist in GIS systems and her role is to track the bombardment to ensure spread is even and the shit doesn't land in or near excluded areas. On the cost of 'free meat' - you are obviously aware of the trusism that fishing is the most expensive way of scoring a free meal. On the 60 years of 1080 and they still haven't killed all the stoats etc, er, I'm fairly sure 1080 is a highly effective method, the issue is they can't / haven't bombed the entire county. The areas that have bombed have come back very well with undergrowth / foliage and bird life etc. On my 50 cal comment being silly, I think your idea that blasting rats with a shotgun is silly. They are hard to spot and loads faster than the average tooled up bloke. That and you can't physically access / walk through 98% of these areas. By example, the worlds strongest army couldn't eradicate the viet-con, even with widespread defoliant spray (agent orange). How do you propose anyone can erradicate rats, cats and stoats with a shotgun? Cats in particular are impossible to spot and even harder to trap. And in some places causing way more damage than everything else. On lead coming from earth, I'm glad we agree a lot of things that come from the earth are highly toxic. I had to smile at your analogy though of all the world wars still not causing a health hazard with lead. I'm fairly sure the millions killed and maimed by flying lead in the world wars have a slightly different view ;-) And getting to the crux of the issue, agreed objectives. I doubt the country / community will ever be able to agree objectives. But that is the issue. Like I say, I'm agnostic about 1080. I think it would be lovely to have predator free areas, but it is also a bit of a first world, white middle class privilege thing. Personally I think critically endangered species are Darwin's theory in reality. Spending lots of resources trying to save the great spotted boobie isn't a great way to allocate scarce resources in my view. The same applies to all the 'invasive' species washing up on a near daily basis. It is just nature doing it's thing. That all said, when I go walking on Kawau and see the dead and destroyed undergrowth, I do wish we could eradicate the wallabies - yes it is about 80% private land, but there are some huge ecological problems with pines, ground cover and errosion on that soil. That and the fire risk is truely frightening, because of the lack of green under story and the mono-culture of wilding pines. And I really love taking the kids to Tiri and seeing the tuatara - oldest living reptile / linked to dinosaurs etc. The example of Tiri though, it is easily accessible, naturally 'fenced' and a nice spot to go for volunteer public. Therefore not the best example of the need for widespread, cost effective aerial deployment of 1080. Oh, and being a poster child island, easy to attract private funding / bequeaths etc. Perhaps I am a hypocrite saying I think saving endangered species is a waste of money and then saying I enjoy the local bird sanctuaries, but I think there is a big difference between creating a pest free environment cost effectively, and spending millions saving some stupid bird that can't shag and nests below the tide line on beaches etc. Probably in summary, I think it is horses for courses with 1080, it has it's uses, but not everywhere. And I think that is how it is being used. |
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