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Post by fish on Nov 22, 2024 19:47:33 GMT 12
So, 1080, or at least the active ingredient, fluoroacetate, occurs naturally in nature and is produced by plants.
1080 naturally occurs in a cup of tea, at 150% greater levels than the drinking water limit.
They used to apply it at 40kg per hectare, but now only use 2kg per hectare. This dramatically reduces by-kill. It is interesting though, those historical levels of application may have lead to all the urban legends as to how bad 1080 is, noting they used to apply it 20 times heavier than they do now.
I wonder how many anti 1080 activists drink tea?
What is 1080?
1080 is a manufactured version of fluoroacetate, a naturally occurring chemical produced by many plants to discourage animal browsing in Western Australia, Sri Lanka, Eastern India, South Africa and South America.
How is 1080 used?
The main use of 1080 is in baits that are designed for consumption by possums and rats. Most baits used in aerial application in public conservation forests are cereal baits dyed green to discourage birds from eating them.
GPS systems ensure baits are distributed very accurately from the air. Since the 1970s, the average quantity of bait used in forests has dropped from 40kg a hectare to less than 2kg for cereal baits – the equivalent of four baits in an area the size of a tennis court.
How effective is 1080 on rats and possums?
When correctly applied, 1080 is very effective. One aerial application can kill over 95% of possums and close to 100% of rats in the targeted area, although rat numbers can bounce back in one or two years. However, birds and other native species can benefit greatly from having one or two good breeding seasons without large-scale predation by rats.
1080 can also kill all or most stoats after they feed on the bodies of rats that have been killed by 1080.
Does 1080 remain in the environment?
1080 is biodegradable and quickly breaks down into non-toxic by-products. Trials in streams showed 90 percent of 1080 was leached from baits within 24 hours. Monitoring of public water supplies has never shown contamination by 1080.
In soil, 1080 can break down in one to two weeks in warm moist conditions, although it can sometimes take several months in extremely dry and cold conditions. Most operations are done in wet winter or spring conditions which encourages the rapid breakdown of the baits.
Does 1080 have any effect on human health?
There have been no recorded cases of 1080 operations causing harm to human health, although one hunter reportedly died at home in the 1960s from eating jam containing 1080. Long-term, low-level exposure is not harmful – a cup of black tea contains 1080’s active ingredient – fluoroacetate – at about 1.5 times the Ministry of Health’s legal limit for 1080 in drinking water.
Does 1080 kill deer?
Feral deer are sometimes killed by 1080, particularly in areas where high deer numbers have eaten the forest understory, making it easier for them to find 1080 baits. Deer are a major conservation pest in New Zealand, preventing forest regrowth. In some popular hunting areas, deer repellent is used in 1080 baits.
Does 1080 kill dogs?
Dogs are particularly sensitive to 1080 and are usually poisoned when they eat the carcass of an animal that has been killed by 1080. A lot of effort is put into informing the public about where 1080 operations have been carried out so owners can keep their dogs away or muzzle them. Local vets are advised before 1080 drops are carried out, and are often able to save dogs suspected of eating 1080 by using acetamide up to four hours after ingestion.
Is 1080 used in other countries?
1080 has been used on a small scale in a number of countries including Australia, the United States, the Galapagos Islands, Israel, and Japan. It is used sparingly in these countries because of the need to protect their native mammals. Most 1080 is used in New Zealand because our only two native land mammals are bats. There is no evidence they are adversely affected by 1080 use and their numbers increase where predators are controlled.
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Post by em on Nov 23, 2024 7:36:11 GMT 12
Plenty of “fuck 1080” stickers up here in northland , 99% of them would be on jacked up ute’s with snorkels and a mulleted driver under 30 . I’m not sure if 1080 is used much in northland .
Tracked kiwi numbers in our Whangarei heads area are just shy of 1900 kiwi . We had a male on our property last winter for a couple of months and the local kiwi coast lady jumped on us big time with free traps and bait stations plus allocated a volunteer trapper that comes once a month for mustelid control . We have noticed a massive increase in bird numbers which will be down to controlling the rat numbers . We have Steve Allen MKll possum traps that are baited with icing laced with aniseed , the rats love the shit too so every possum trap has a rat bait station underneath loaded with pindone .
The work is showing definite results . We are quite aways from bream head almost halfway to tutukaka and have kaka and kakariki migrating to our hill, both are very susceptible to rat predation of nests . Our property is on a kiwi “corridor” and the ultimate plan is to have that pest free so tutukaka coast to Bream head is a joined kiwi habitat . The male that was on our place left in the direction of HoraHora which just south of Ngunguru so the buggers do hike around a bit .
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mihit
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Post by mihit on Nov 23, 2024 8:07:52 GMT 12
Sorry mihit , there is a bit much there for me to respond to coherently, and I haven't worked out how to use the multi-quote tool. Anyway. I don't think the forum does it, you have to switch over to "bb code" when replying and add in the quote /quote tags manually. It also seems to be more reliable in keeping what I type, rather than disappearing it to wherever it goes. Targetting, bait recovery/ environmental persistence. I don't think anyone questions it's efficacy at killing. I am not aware of (have not looked recently) for longer term understory regeneration or bird population numbers, or re-invasion numbers, but they weren't great even 10 years ago. Personally, having been in many bushes, over many years, 1080 has made SFA difference. NZ has a 4000 mile moat. It shouldn't be hard bomb the entire country eh. So why not. Yeah, that was not meant to be taken seriously. Although I think my logic there about non-toxic fertiliser is sound  Cats are often spotted and shot by hunters, or trapped in the bush and on farmland. I would say they're probably the most destructive four-legged pest in the country. Did anyone die from lead "left in the environment", then or since? That was the original premise you put forward. Did somebody say strawman?  I don't believe you are agnostic, you sure seem more for than against. If that's based on data I'd love to see it, but you do mention "cost" and "budget" a lot. Do you know how much has been spent on the programme? I used to do a bit of marching and flag waving (if you couldn't tell )And admittedly have not kept up with research. If it's good anywhere, why not everywhere? The old forest service didn't seem to have much trouble walking or flying into, and taking deer out of these "inaccesable" forest blocks. If the incentive was there, similar men could be found and re-purposed to pest control, surely. Why eradicate all the wallabies? Why not cull to a manageable population? or, Do you think an equilibrium can't be reached? How would you envision the island transforming in the abcense of human intervention for 10-50-100-1000 years? Why not just throw a match now, fire is natural after all - serious question - fire is a valuable part of certain regen cycles. Yeah well there we go, we definitely agree that more trees, probably more life at all levels from the roots to the canopy, is a good thing. We also agree that predation on endemic flora and fauna is bad. You seem to think that deer and goats do some unrecoverable damage to the bush, and see no value in them as a food/recreation/trophy resource, so have no issue with them as illegal by-kill. Although I have a bit more love for terns and dotterels than you seem to. So given the same resources we'd probably still allocate them differently. |
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mihit
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Post by mihit on Nov 23, 2024 8:37:16 GMT 12
What disingeneous greenwash nonsense. Much massaging of the truth, if not outright lies. So, 1080, or at least the active ingredient, fluoroacetate, occurs naturally in nature and is produced by plants. 1080 naturally occurs in a cup of tea, at 150% greater levels than the drinking water limit. They used to apply it at 40kg per hectare, but now only use 2kg per hectare. This dramatically reduces by-kill. It is interesting though, those historical levels of application may have lead to all the urban legends as to how bad 1080 is, noting they used to apply it 20 times heavier than they do now. I wonder how many anti 1080 activists drink tea? What is 1080? 1080 is a manufactured version of fluoroacetate, a naturally occurring chemical produced by many plants to discourage animal browsing in Western Australia, Sri Lanka, Eastern India, South Africa and South America. ... Does 1080 have any effect on human health? There have been no recorded cases of 1080 operations causing harm to human health, although one hunter reportedly died at home in the 1960s from eating jam containing 1080. Long-term, low-level exposure is not harmful – a cup of black tea contains 1080’s active ingredient – fluoroacetate – at about 1.5 times the Ministry of Health’s legal limit for 1080 in drinking water. Anyone who believes this, please confirm by drinking 150x dose of 1080 as a tea. If tea is so toxic, why not sprinkle that through the bush? That's analgous to saying because clover releases cyanide when cut, and you don't die from mowing the lawn, cyanide is safe. The other ingredient in 1080 is sodium, sodium is in salt, and you put salt on your fish and chips don't you? Now go eat some sodium. 
The number of baits hung up in trees for birds to eat, and the number of birds and deer filmed eating the baits, and the number of dead birds after an operation would prove that a lie. The language also around deer "feral" and "have eaten the understory"...deer are ungulate browsers, what of these four baits per tennis court (the ones that make it to the forest floor and are not eaten by rats obviously) are they finding? I would say they are under-reporting the dosage rate. Or rather they may be dropping less volume of baits, but upping the volume %/w active ingredient.
And how many rats is four baits/ tennis court expected to kill? And what is the evidence that it does? Bit of a red herring. Relying on secondary poisoning is uncouth to say the least, and right after espousing how it breaks down so quickly. OK so baits leach the toxin into streams in 24 hours... I'll bet that's great for our koura, tuna and trout. I strongly question their "breaks down into non toxic" statement. And I'll bet a shiny dollar the drinking water they tested is flourinated anyway.
Here's an obviously biased, but apparently well cited collection of info. No affiliation, it just happened to come up while I was looking for DOCs "study" (attached)
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mihit
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Post by mihit on Nov 23, 2024 8:48:33 GMT 12
Plenty of “fuck 1080” stickers up here in northland , 99% of them would be on jacked up ute’s with snorkels and a mulleted driver under 30 . I’m not sure if 1080 is used much in northland . Tracked kiwi numbers in our Whangarei heads area are just shy of 1900 kiwi . We had a male on our property last winter for a couple of months and the local kiwi coast lady jumped on us big time with free traps and bait stations plus allocated a volunteer trapper that comes once a month for mustelid control . We have noticed a massive increase in bird numbers which will be down to controlling the rat numbers . We have Steve Allen MKll possum traps that are baited with icing laced with aniseed , the rats love the shit too so every possum trap has a rat bait station underneath loaded with pindone . The work is showing definite results . We are quite aways from bream head almost halfway to tutukaka and have kaka and kakariki migrating to our hill, both are very susceptible to rat predation of nests . Our property is on a kiwi “corridor” and the ultimate plan is to have that pest free so tutukaka coast to Bream head is a joined kiwi habitat . The male that was on our place left in the direction of HoraHora which just south of Ngunguru so the buggers do hike around a bit . I made the block I was on a few years back into a bit of a sanctuary (Oakura area). Had 3 kiwi hanging out around the place. No kakariki though, but I never quite shot all the ausralian parrots off. That would have been awesome. Pretty much tripled every bird species over 5 years. I hope the new owners keep on top of it.
Constantly people dumping cats along the road. Traps and poison used for possums etc. One boundary was a creek too, which was state highway one for mustelids and rodents!!
Russel forest was aerial 1080'd a few years back. I think they've got punaruku closed down now for a few years, nominally for "deer control". I haven't heard of any choppers though. I would imagine they're running 1080 in bait stations or cyanide.
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Post by harrytom on Nov 23, 2024 15:49:11 GMT 12
"Mihit" we were drinking straight from the river at brokenhills 3 months after drop,The amount of water vs pallets has no direct affect.
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Post by fish on Nov 23, 2024 16:35:07 GMT 12
"Mihit" we were drinking straight from the river at brokenhills 3 months after drop,The amount of water vs pallets has no direct affect. I'd be more worried about getting giadia. Those goats and deer shit everywhere ;-) |
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mihit
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Post by mihit on Nov 23, 2024 18:12:47 GMT 12
"Mihit" we were drinking straight from the river at brokenhills 3 months after drop,The amount of water vs pallets has no direct affect. Yeah there are reasonably understood timeframes for dispersal, or deflourination. Generally about 2 weeks but can be up to a few months, and longer in carcasses. But where does it all -go- man? |
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mihit
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Post by mihit on Nov 23, 2024 18:15:57 GMT 12
And for anyone who cares about -how- an animal dies aka "humanely despatching them", pest or not...1080 isn't it. It's a conscious painful death taking from 12-40 hours.
The goverment describes this as "moderately humane" or something.
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Post by harrytom on Nov 23, 2024 18:48:49 GMT 12
And for anyone who cares about -how- an animal dies aka "humanely despatching them", pest or not...1080 isn't it. It's a conscious painful death taking from 12-40 hours. The goverment describes this as "moderately humane" or something. What cost effective measures would you use? 1080 nor ideal but its effective and doing what we cant,access areas of dense bush |
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mihit
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Post by mihit on Nov 24, 2024 18:06:07 GMT 12
Can you tell me what the cost is? Can you tell me what metric is used, and how it's measured? Disagree. Pretty much anywhere can be accessed. Plus, they're not limiting use to where access is difficult. What cost effective measures would you use? Having an alternative isn't actually a prerequisite for opposing what is currently happening. |
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Post by harrytom on Nov 24, 2024 19:09:07 GMT 12
Well mihit you need to have an alternative to what is currently being used. Sounds like typical Greenie oppose current use but no suggestion to alternative. No matter what is proposed or used you will object.
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mihit
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Post by mihit on Nov 25, 2024 5:32:28 GMT 12
No, I don't.
Can you tell me how it's cost effective is is that just a government-issue catchphrase you heard and repeat?
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Post by harrytom on Nov 25, 2024 9:44:42 GMT 12
Cover more area in short time compared to trapper or shooter.Contractor or on wages be paying $35/40 pH minimum. Be like the old rabbit board so much a tail. You still haven't said how you would combat the problem.
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Post by fish on Nov 25, 2024 10:52:00 GMT 12
The reality of it is 1080 is the only way to control rats.
All the hunting / shooting options are around deer, goats and rabbits. We've already had a conversation about using a 50cal, or even a shotgun on rats. It is a nonsense.
Sure the rabbit boards could pay per bunny tail, but what are you going to do for rats? Cut their tail off and bring it in? You'd have to find it first after obliterating the rat and all the bush around it with a 50cal.
That is assuming you can even walk in these areas. Which 98% of you can't.
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