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Post by fish on Aug 14, 2023 11:03:38 GMT 12
Section 3 of the TAIC report has a detailed discussion of where the EPRIB was activated (basically ontop of the rock, but just south of it) and where the skipper thinks the capsize occured - 1nm away due east, in 50 m of water. He has a pre-planned routed with waypoints, including a turning waypoint in 50m of water. The cabin top that 3 survivors were on had the EPIRB. It would have had to have drifted at 2knts for the skippers position to be correct. This is a reasonable tidal stream around there I reckon. BUT it is completely opposite to NRCC's drift modelling. In saying that, the report itself says they have no reliable data for North Cape, and that tides and currents in close proximity to headlands like that have 'elevated levels of complexity...' It is plausible the skipper was closer in that he planned or thought. i.e. was cutting the corner to get home faster, either consciously or sub-consciously. BUT, the weather had cleared, it was sunny, the sea state was abating to 1.5-2m. They had the saloon windows open, as in the weather had settled right down. I can't see how TAIC can say there was an increased risk of a rogue wave based on the exact position. Noting I haven't read that section yet. What I can say is the trial will be fascinating. Wonder if it will be live-streamed. There is no smoking gun here on the skipper doing anything grossly negligent. The Mikhail Lermentov went between rocks and a point. That was grossly negligent. The Kotuku (old cray boat) loaded several tonnes of gear on the roof and then took, what was it 11 people to the Mutton Bird Islands south west of Stewart Island and capsized. He was also actively avoiding the MNZ inspector prior to that trip. That was grossly negligent. ALL of the safety devices did not work as intended. The EPIRB and Liferafts did not deploy. The report is strangely silent on these key failures. www.taic.org.nz/sites/default/files/inquiry/documents/MO-2022-201%20Final%20Report.pdf |
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Post by GO30 on Aug 17, 2023 11:49:58 GMT 12
How can any commercially operated vessel in NZ still not require AIS? There is literally no hurdle or excuse to mandating that by tomorrow lunchtime. Nil. Nada. Talking to a AIS specialist yesterday and many, most commercial do have to have AIS. But as AIS is finite he reckons the secondary commercial have been left out to save some space in the system. The Enchanter like outfits can use AIS Class B but he reckons they should be on AIS B+.
It's a system that is growing beyond it's capabilities and that's causing a few issues apparently.
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Post by fish on Aug 17, 2023 12:00:03 GMT 12
How can any commercially operated vessel in NZ still not require AIS? There is literally no hurdle or excuse to mandating that by tomorrow lunchtime. Nil. Nada. Talking to a AIS specialist yesterday and many, most commercial do have to have AIS. But as AIS is finite he reckons the secondary commercial have been left out to save some space in the system. The Enchanter like outfits can use AIS Class B but he reckons they should be on AIS B+.
It's a system that is growing beyond it's capabilities and that's causing a few issues apparently.
There is the added element that certain fisho's are a tad secretive about their special spots. I'd say that charter fisho's are right up there, being that the spots that yield the big fish are a key part of their value proposition / value of their business. If you want to find out where the whale's are dolphins are, track the whale & dolphin watch boat on AIS (mates of mine have done this, to show their kids dolphins). The same applies for the fishing charters... Apparently the Enchanter did have a spot tracker, not an AIS one. The report didn't mention the type / brand, but did say it only worked intermittently. And all that said, it's not clear how AIS would have helped the rescue. They still needed the EPIRB to go off to inform of the need for rescue, and that had position information. I'll bet you a good bottle of whisky TAIC are only talking about AIS, cause it would make it easier for MNZ to prosecute this theory they have that Enchanter cut the corner at the island. Same as the only reason they go on about LJ's is cause it makes it easier to find the bodies, when the liferafts that failed would have saved everyone who got out of the boat. |
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Post by DuckMaster on Aug 20, 2023 20:57:30 GMT 12
How can any commercially operated vessel in NZ still not require AIS? There is literally no hurdle or excuse to mandating that by tomorrow lunchtime. Nil. Nada. Talking to a AIS specialist yesterday and many, most commercial do have to have AIS. But as AIS is finite he reckons the secondary commercial have been left out to save some space in the system. The Enchanter like outfits can use AIS Class B but he reckons they should be on AIS B+.
It's a system that is growing beyond it's capabilities and that's causing a few issues apparently.
AIS is not finite, at least not in any practical sense. You'd need over 2250 transmitting boats within 1000m of you to not be guaranteed a transmission slot. And frankly if you're in that situation you probably shouldn't be relying on your AIS giving you 30 second position updates! The protocol is designed so that in exceptionally congested areas, vessels closer transmit over the top of vessels further away. So even if you were in the most congested areas you'll still be able to see the closest boats on your AIS receiver. Which after all is what it's for. Not withstanding that satellites are always able to receive all the signals and can see the full picture albeit with a longer time delay which isn't great for collision avoidance. The system has not grown beyond it's capabilities. But what's happening around the world is that organisations trying to use it in ways it wasn't intended are running into issues. Eg a port authority with an antenna on its roof can't see a ship 10km away because all the local traffic, within 2km, is broadcasting over the top of the ship... Again exactly as the protocol is designed to operate. One thing your expert is correct about is that Class B+ should be the only choice for a refit or a new installation. |
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Post by fish on Aug 21, 2023 10:27:41 GMT 12
What is class B+ AIS?
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Post by Cantab on Aug 21, 2023 10:50:43 GMT 12
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Post by GO30 on Aug 21, 2023 13:53:21 GMT 12
I believe AIS B+ is 5w transmission not the 2W standard B is.
What all commercial need to have for situations like the Enchanter is what big ships and aircraft have, a black box which is effectively a la de do da data Logger. They are super easy to get and install. I have a USB stick that just plugs into my plotter and I can tell it to record a shed load of stuff and at whatever intervals I want. That cost les than a hundy (some years back).
With all boats having instrumentation if that could be logged you'd see exactly what the skipper does or in this case did. That would put MNZ eyes into the skippers sockets so show them exactly what the skipper was working off at the time. It would also show glitches or if the boat lost power at a critical time and lots of other handy shit like where it boats plotter was when it hit the fan.
Actually a month or so back I brought another logger that does temp, humidity and the like for our distillery division to check the wash fermentation temp wasn't doing crazy Ivans at 3am, it wasn't. That cost 100 odd notes including the graphing software.
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Post by em on Aug 21, 2023 18:47:06 GMT 12
I believe AIS B+ is 5w transmission not the 2W standard B is. What all commercial need to have for situations like the Enchanter is what big ships and aircraft have, a black box which is effectively a la de do da data Logger. They are super easy to get and install. I have a USB stick that just plugs into my plotter and I can tell it to record a shed load of stuff and at whatever intervals I want. That cost les than a hundy (some years back). With all boats having instrumentation if that could be logged you'd see exactly what the skipper does or in this case did. That would put MNZ eyes into the skippers sockets so show them exactly what the skipper was working off at the time. It would also show glitches or if the boat lost power at a critical time and lots of other handy shit like where it boats plotter was when it hit the fan. Actually a month or so back I brought another logger that does temp, humidity and the like for our distillery division to check the wash fermentation temp wasn't doing crazy Ivans at 3am, it wasn't. That cost 100 odd notes including the graphing software. Distillery division ? Chains , Ropes , Anchors and Rum ? |
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Post by harrytom on May 6, 2024 12:40:26 GMT 12
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Post by fish on May 7, 2024 9:02:00 GMT 12
The media has been very quiet in mentioning Maritime NZ have dropped two of the three charges due to lack of evidence. So they make him pay for a KC to prepare a defense, then drop it at the last minute.
The case from MNZ is very thin. They are saying that after a front has passed, there is increased danger!?! No, when the front passes there is increased danger. That is why he was anchored at that time the front went over.
The prosecution are making a big deal about it being dark and this increases risk. That is lost on me. Doesn't matter if it is light or dark if a freak wave hits you.
Then this whole thing about increased risk within 3 miles of the coast. In all my formal training in NZ and the UK to RYA Yachtmaster Ocean, I have never heard of a rule that you must stay 3 miles away from a coast. Anyone else ever heard that rule?
The only thing they actually have him on is an out of date first aid certificate. Seriously. Meanwhile, they couldn't run a rescue cause they couldn't find fuel for the helo. Oh, and the MNZ prescribed and approved EPIRB did not work. Supposed to activate in water, didn't, then wouldn't turn on. Took them 15minutes to get it to go - fucking hell.
There is a culture in qausi-legal govt departments that if something bad happens, they must hang someone. Doesn't matter who or what they did, but someone must be hung. Almost always someone without resources to fight back (as in, they don't go after the wealthy cause it's too much work).
Story on the weekend about a bus crash in the Otira Gorge. Let the driver off scot free and ruined the mechanic who'd serviced the breaks two days before. Cost him $270k and remortgaged his home, forced bus companies to stop using him, then dropped all the charges. When we went for costs they threatened to lay more charges if he sought costs (which I though was highly illegal). Didn't prove the drive competent or started the downhill descent in the correct gear. Did not prove that the chinese bus breaks were up to it in the first place, noting that that would fall on them as the regulator and approver.
The upshot of all of this is, if you are doing anything productive, you'd better have public liability insurance to pay for legal costs if a qausi-legal govt department decides they are going to eat you for dinner.
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Post by harrytom on May 7, 2024 9:15:43 GMT 12
Posted over there this question,dont expect a response,but will ask here.
,if a airline pilot crashed and killed his passengers he would be grounded,so why can a charter skipper who endangered life/lost life be able to continue operating/skippering as normal pending court case?
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Post by fish on May 7, 2024 9:21:08 GMT 12
Posted over there this question,dont expect a response,but will ask here. ,if a airline pilot crashed and killed his passengers he would be grounded,so why can a charter skipper who endangered life/lost life be able to continue operating/skippering as normal pending court case? They way you've worded that is a bit of a nonsense question. If an airline pilot crashed and killed his passengers, who is almost def going to be dead himself. But I understand the logic, if this guy is so dangerous to have killed 5 people, why are MNZ letting him continue to operate pending trial? I see him on FB, and he is having no trouble filling his boats with paying punters. Several photos of guys holding donkey kingfish, but with PLB's strapped to their arm or belt... The only answer can be that he isn't dangerous, and MNZ have nothing on him. The best corrective actions I can think of post this accident is to get a set of PLB's for all onboard and make them wear them while out. From the FB photos, it looks like that is happening. What else can you do? Reduce the operating limit for wind speed or wave state of the boat? Doesn't sound like that was the cause of the issue in the first place. |
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Post by harrytom on May 7, 2024 10:08:11 GMT 12
Posted over there this question,dont expect a response,but will ask here. ,if a airline pilot crashed and killed his passengers he would be grounded,so why can a charter skipper who endangered life/lost life be able to continue operating/skippering as normal pending court case? They way you've worded that is a bit of a nonsense question. If an airline pilot crashed and killed his passengers, who is almost def going to be dead himself. But I understand the logic, if this guy is so dangerous to have killed 5 people, why are MNZ letting him continue to operate pending trial? I see him on FB, and he is having no trouble filling his boats with paying punters. Several photos of guys holding donkey kingfish, but with PLB's strapped to their arm or belt... The only answer can be that he isn't dangerous, and MNZ have nothing on him. The best corrective actions I can think of post this accident is to get a set of PLB's for all onboard and make them wear them while out. From the FB photos, it looks like that is happening. What else can you do? Reduce the operating limit for wind speed or wave state of the boat? Doesn't sound like that was the cause of the issue in the first place. But then again i could be drunk driving a car,kill someone and wait 6 months to go to court and still legally allowed to drive. The laws are a bit of a arse at times. |
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Post by GO30 on May 7, 2024 17:58:58 GMT 12
Pilots have crashed and continued flying, it all depends on 'did the pilot fuck up?'.
Listening to a commentary on the trial I was left with the feeling the trial is happening as MNZ need to be seen to do something. I know they copped some grief due to a total lack of anything after a 2 yacht collision on the Akl harbour some years back and I see actions since that suggests they fully remember that. I have little concern in suggesting this court action is more about face saving/perception than much else, especially now they have not been able to support most of the claims made. Then add in MNZ used to be mariners but there are none now,they are all lawyers so again I also see butt protection in action.
I see the MSM are trying to hang the skipper. One mob is continually 'the other boats there decided it was safer to stay than to head back'. Hmmmm......
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Post by harrytom on May 15, 2024 18:39:17 GMT 12
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