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Post by DuckMaster on Dec 27, 2022 12:16:21 GMT 12
When the first cars were sold you had to have someone walking ahead waving a flag / lantern. Hydrogen is that modern day equivalent. 5/10 years you won't be able to give an EV away. Over the past 60 yrs plenty of inventors have produced hydrogen cars....some disappeared for their ingenuity. As you say, Hydrogen cars are not new. Space rockets have been powered by liquid hydrogen since the first space rockets. The issue isn't the technology, the issue is the distribution and manufacturing of the hydrogen. You can buy 50kW hydrogen fuel cells for your off-grid house - right now! The technology is readily available. But... You have to break the laws of physics or invent sustainable fusion energy to make hydrogen really work for the commodity consumer. You put in say 1kW of electrical power to produce say 0.8kW of Hydrogen power. That's never going to change in any amount of time ever. That's just high school physics. So already you are on the back foot in an economy that runs on money in >> money out. In the future we will have fusion energy, a new era will be ushered in, we will be living in the era-of-plenty, the world will change, and whichever country invents sustainable fusion will become a super-power overnight. So the energy cost of producing hydrogen won't matter, we'll be able to use as much energy as we want to make as much hydrogen as we want. But the irony is, when we have fusion, we won't need the hydrogen any more... Hydrogen has a future, but it won't be in consumer grade transportation, (the family car), and that's not because of the technology, that's because of the lack of investment in distribution infrastructure. Name a single country in the world that is investing in a H2 consumer grade distribution network? It's unfortunately the BetaMax vs VHS, all over again. |
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Post by DuckMaster on Dec 27, 2022 12:31:37 GMT 12
get with the times. New tech, no leaks, safer than a lithium battery You're actually quite behind the times... 1. Lithium-ion is so yesterday, sodium-ion is the latest battery tech 2. Hydrogen engines aren't new, the first H2 engine was invented in 1807. 3. Hydrogen is the smallest molecule in the known universe, so no other material can contain it. If a tank is made out of Iron, the Hydrogen molecules can literally slide between the Iron molecules. While the leakage is very slow it cannot be stopped. Hydrogen can literally fit through gaps that other molecules such as Oxygen can't. The reason hydrogen cars have not taken off, isn't because of hydrogen, or it's safety, or the availability of H2 engines or H2 fuel cells or hydrogen innovation. The problem is both the production and the distribution of Hydrogen, which are stopping it going mainstream. No one is interested in the investment required to bring hydrogen to every corner gas station when the electricity network is already there and it can produce the power for less $$'s Also, while the safety of two different stores of power if hard to compare, your EV battery will not suddenly explode under any circumstances and take out an entire street corner, while your Hydrogen tank will. I think you'll be hard pushed to find anyone that would claim that hydrogen would be safer in an vehicle accident than a lithium battery. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2022 13:16:12 GMT 12
When you say "here" you mean "here, but not available for purchase" - unless you are part of a special trial group where you get the vehicle for free. FCEV has a good future, but it is a long long way away, because, there's no infrastructure in NZ, or, more importantly, anywhere in the world for, Hydrogen (FCEV) to get the traction it needs. Production and distribution require major investments in infrastructure. NZ plans to have 4 stations in the North Island by mid to late 2023. FCEV are going to remain in the realm of the transportation sector for a very long time. The trucks which fill up in Auckland and drive to Wellington, where they can fill up again. Or buses, or planes, or trains, but not domestic consumer cars which will need to leave the Hydrogen network by 100's of Ks. The fact that Hydrogen is an incredibly inefficient way to store energy and the reality that we will have no consumer grade distribution network for a very very long time will hold FCEV's back. In the meantime battery tech is jumping ahead in leaps and bounds. And of course we already have a power distribution network. Also, lets not forget the key drawback of hydrogen for domestic use, park your car for a week with a full tank of hydrogen, come back and find that 1/3rd of it has escaped out of the tank. Or worse still, park your car on near empty, come back and find it has all gone and it's 50km to the nearest H2 station. And of course H2 contributes to the climate-change problem when it is just willy-nilly allowed to leak into the atmosphere. FCEV's are good, but not the silver bullet some people think they are. get with the times. New tech, no leaks, safer than a lithium battery Remember the Hindenburg |
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Post by armchairadmiral on Dec 27, 2022 13:33:40 GMT 12
1937. It's now 2023. We've (allegedly) been to the moon ,landed probes all over solar system plus a heap of things they don't tell us about. Sure, learn from the past but don't live in it
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EV farce
Dec 27, 2022 13:35:55 GMT 12
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Post by OLD ROPE 👀 on Dec 27, 2022 13:35:55 GMT 12
Remember there is no exposed flame in a hydrogen car. The duel cell powers a electric motor
Remember the model t, the aluminium masts, the rotary phone, ....
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Post by DuckMaster on Dec 27, 2022 14:24:41 GMT 12
The fuel cell actually charges a Lithium battery, which is used to provide power to the electric motor. The fuel cell provides a constant amount of power replenishing the battery, while the battery is able to deliver bursts of energy as needed for acceleration and hill climbing.
Nothing has changed since 1937 to make Hydrogen less flamable when it mixes with air.
Hydrogen mixed with air has the highest rating on the flammability scale. (higher than petrol).
Ignition sources can be
a spark, eg when a car collides with anything
a electrical short circuit, eg that Lithium battery that the fuel cell is charging short circuiting
a very hot surface, eg a metal piece that has just been dragged down the road at 100km/h
a flame
Under the right conditions Hydrogen can self ignite when escaping from a ruptured pressure vessel without a source of ignition.
The other issue with hydrogen storage, even without a ignition source, is that the storage tank is under immense pressure. A ruptured tank could rip apart a car and fire high velocity projectiles 100s of metres even if the hydrogen doesn't ignite.
Hydrogen is not a safer energy store than a battery. They both have pro's and con's depending on the scenario.
But to say that Hydrogen is safer is just wrong.
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Post by OLD ROPE 👀 on Dec 27, 2022 15:28:44 GMT 12
Top 5 reasons why hydrogen cars are better than electric cars
Overall, hydrogen FCEVs are lower in total emissions than BEVs if green hydrogen is used. Fuel cells are 100% recyclable and renewable, whereas the lithium-ion batteries used in BEVs may present recycling challenges at the end of their lifespan.
Hydrogen is the most abundant element in the universe; it’s a plentiful and renewable source of energy.
A hydrogen FCEV typically has a range of over 500km from each tank, with new models in development that will reportedly have ranges up to 800km. This compares favourably with a typical BEV range of around 300km.
It takes just a few minutes to fully refuel a car’s hydrogen tank, compared to several hours to recharge a BEV.
The fuel cell stack in a FCEV lasts the lifespan of the car. Lithium-ion batteries have a lifespan of 10 to 20 years and range degrades over time....
And the fuel sell directly powers the e motors! No batteries
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Post by DuckMaster on Dec 27, 2022 16:16:49 GMT 12
Top 5 reasons why hydrogen cars are better than electric cars Overall, hydrogen FCEVs are lower in total emissions than BEVs if green hydrogen is used. Fuel cells are 100% recyclable and renewable, whereas the lithium-ion batteries used in BEVs may present recycling challenges at the end of their lifespan. Hydrogen is the most abundant element in the universe; it’s a plentiful and renewable source of energy. A hydrogen FCEV typically has a range of over 500km from each tank, with new models in development that will reportedly have ranges up to 800km. This compares favourably with a typical BEV range of around 300km. It takes just a few minutes to fully refuel a car’s hydrogen tank, compared to several hours to recharge a BEV. The fuel cell stack in a FCEV lasts the lifespan of the car. Lithium-ion batteries have a lifespan of 10 to 20 years and range degrades over time.... And the fuel sell directly powers the e motors! No batteries Lithium batteries can be fully recycled (100% recyclable) but it is not cost effective. Saying lifetime, is misleading, current fuel cells have a lifetime of 100k - 150k. So certainly more than Lithium... Like batteries in BEVs they are also the most expensive part of the car. The Hyundai Nexo H2 car has a 1.56kW Lithium battery. The Hyundai Xcient truck has a 72kWh Lithium battery. The Toyota Mirai has a 1.2kWh Lithium battery. The Emirates chase boat has a Torqueedo Lithium Iron Phosphate battery, they don't state the capacity. In all of those power drive systems the hydrogen fuel cell is responsible for charging the battery and the battery produces the energy on demand. Fuel cells take a short while to ramp up 10-20 seconds. They aren't able to produce immediate power like the battery can. FCEVs are fundamentally hybrids they operate the same way as a HEV. Don't get me wrong, FCEVs are superior in almost every regard... We just don't have a green hydrogen distribution network to make take them mainstream. That and the fundamental cost of producing H2 is what's going to hold them back. From the Emirates press release: Chase Zero is powered by two 80kW Toyota hydrogen fuel cells...
This electricity is then either stored in the battery, or fed directly into the electric motors that provide the propulsion to the boat.
The fuel cells provide the majority of the energy, however the battery acts as a filter for the faster changes in power demand. The response time of the fuel cell is much slower than available from the battery, so during fast changes in demand the battery supplies the difference...
The battery is also used to achieve the higher speeds. The boat can cruise at approximately 30kts with the 160kW generated from the fuel cells, but to achieve the higher end speeds up towards 50 knots we are able to draw from the batteries as well to bump this up to around 420kW for shorter periods. The fuel cell will then re-charge the batteries once there is excess power available again. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2022 16:34:29 GMT 12
Hydrogen is a inefficient fuel but maybe a long term fuel in heavy vehicles
Which method is more efficient battery or hydrogen-powered and why?
Depending on the model, the battery-powered e-car thus achieves an efficiency of between 70 to 80 percent. In the case of the hydrogen-powered e-car, the losses are much greater: 45 percent of the energy is already lost during the production of hydrogen through electrolysis.12/03/2020
What is more efficient: E-battery or hydrogen?
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Post by Cantab on Dec 27, 2022 17:18:29 GMT 12
The Governments own briefing paper states that the "hydrogen" economy only begins to make sense if you can get the energy input for free.
If you can make enough electricity to run the fleet on batteries, you need three times as much generation to do the same with hydrogen.
That's what greenies mean by sustainable and efficient.
Not even getting to the bit about all the resources need to be mined to make it all a realty, I guess with enough Government grants anything can become viable in a very narrow sense.
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Post by DuckMaster on Dec 27, 2022 19:19:14 GMT 12
Hydrogen is a inefficient fuel but maybe a long term fuel in heavy vehicles Which method is more efficient battery or hydrogen-powered and why? Depending on the model, the battery-powered e-car thus achieves an efficiency of between 70 to 80 percent. In the case of the hydrogen-powered e-car, the losses are much greater: 45 percent of the energy is already lost during the production of hydrogen through electrolysis.12/03/2020 What is more efficient: E-battery or hydrogen? This is what I was eluding too before. If you take 100W of power, by the time you've gotten it back into the FCEV drive line it is down to 45W. And that assumes you had 0W of energy transportation costs and didn't have to truck the Hydrogen in. Getting H2 to a Hydrogen ICE is a bit better @65w but HICEV's are about as efficient as carbon ICE engines. So way worse than FECV. All the manufacturers (even Toyota) have pretty much given up on HICEV's. HICE will have a place in aeronautics eventually but unlikely that will translate to cars... |
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Post by DuckMaster on Dec 27, 2022 19:34:31 GMT 12
The Governments own briefing paper states that the "hydrogen" economy only begins to make sense if you can get the energy input for free. If you can make enough electricity to run the fleet on batteries, you need three times as much generation to do the same with hydrogen. That's what greenies mean by sustainable and efficient. Not even getting to the bit about all the resources need to be mined to make it all a realty, I guess with enough Government grants anything can become viable in a very narrow sense. When that Alluminium smelter shuts down we will have excess electricity and we'll be able to become Hydrogen exporters. But eventually we will want to put that power back into the grid and will build the infrastructure to connect Manopouri to the grid and stop exporting. There's a chance that when we start exporting, some of that free Hydrogen could make its way into a distribution network. But I think it is unlikely because car manufacturers aren't producing fcev vehicles fast enough and NZ isn't a big enough market. Roll on fusion power. |
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Post by DuckMaster on Dec 27, 2022 19:49:46 GMT 12
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EV farce
Dec 30, 2022 18:49:46 GMT 12
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Post by OLD ROPE 👀 on Dec 30, 2022 18:49:46 GMT 12
The best solution to all these ICE emissions is to invent a emissions free ICE motor
How?...
1. Cumbustion that burns off everything...
2. Post combustion afterburner
3. Exhaust nano filtration?
4. Post combustion chemical neutralizer?.
5. ?
Surely there is a solution
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2023 15:47:15 GMT 12
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