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EV farce
Apr 13, 2022 16:41:38 GMT 12
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2022 16:41:38 GMT 12
Fish: duplicity? 😂😂😂. Mate, I'm still waiting for replies to the two posts I re posted above.... And in context to the topic regarding EVs and not duplicit posts bagging Diesels, ICEs, ... In favour of old phev's that pollute, 2 ways ,just as badly.
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Post by GO30 on Apr 13, 2022 16:48:45 GMT 12
But then aren't you, as in a EV owner/driver, being a tad selfish?
Sure you save on fuel costs but at the cost of what to many others both in the production of and the disposal of the technologies used.
I think you can shoot any technology down for many assorted reasons.
To me EV's are like Brian Tamaki, they have their good and also some serious downsides but for a sector of society they do work and work very well. Personally neither would benefit my existence, which currently includes a reasonable amount of shit that is regarded as seriously plant friendly. But there is an irony here in that to do the things I am I do need the assistance of a couple of ICE vehicles as there is no EV's that can substitute.
Tis a strange wee world at times.
I'm not really following you on the selfish arguement there. The 'you' was being used generically and I meant more pure EV than a EV/ICE Trans.
The selfish bit many EV owners I know think they are legends for saving the planet when in fact all they are doing is ignoring the huge number of people fucking the planet on their behalf.
I have no doubt EV will be the way to go and it is damn close now as long as you live in the burbs and have little need to travel often, far or carry anything. If you do then ICE is still the better option.
The ute tax is just another Ardern punishment tax. It will achieve fuck all and the only real winners will be the rich pricks buying their ridiculous priced Teslas.
Ford, why would ya.....OH yeah, ya got suckered by the marketing, more fool you. And Fraud drivers laugh at my Ssingsongs, the same Ssingsongs that cost 1/3rd less, are far higher featured, don't break down every other month and are far nicer to drive. I bet Fraud drivers that after 2hrs of driving don't have their dashboard go completely dark then have a photo of a cup of tea come up with 'Is it time for a break?' written under neither it. Gotta love that Sth Korean eye for detail  |
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Post by ComfortZone on Apr 13, 2022 16:56:43 GMT 12
yes, I am cherry picking data hare to a certain extent, but this just highlights the perceived EV advantages are by no means cut and dried Whilst not much of issue in NZ, at least from a connectivity point of view, charging at home is quite an issue in many countries where vehicles are parked on the street or in parking buildings/apartment blocks, many without any charging facility (and now the building owners are getting nervous about charging in said buildings). Then there is the issue of electricity availability, even before the current Ukraine stoush Europe, UK and certain parts of USA were facing major shortfalls in power generation, now it has got a whole lot worse. Then there is the future issue of "control", once governments have you install a smart meter for your EV they/energy providers can (and will) decide when you can charge your car, and can chop and change the tariff at will www.autoexpress.co.uk/electric-cars/353209/energy-firms-want-right-switch-electric-cars-charging-homeAs you mention, none of those issue apply to NZ. I live in NZ, hence base my arguements on what applies here. EV in Au is bat shit crazy from an environmental perspective. There carbon emmission factor of a kWh of eletricity is about 1.25 I think (kg/CO2 or whatever the units are). NZ's same emmissions factor is 0.125. Aust produces the vast majority of electricity from thermal coal. We produce the vast majority of ours from hyrdo, followed by geothermal. If this was an Au sailing forum, you could nail me on the benefits of EV's. Noting that this is "nzsailing-forum" , I think it is more compelling an argument if you apply the NZ situation ;-) Not sure where Australia came into the discussion but you perhaps need to reconsider your numbers on CO2 emissions for the NZ situation. As I am sure you know about 85% of NZ's generating capacity comes from Hydro and geothermal. The rest is from all the other forms of generation. The existing generating capacity at times struggles to deliver enough power to traditional consumers and now there are 2 additional consumers, EVs and Sth Island factories (milk factories and the like) that used to have coal fired boilers and have now had their arms twisted to go to less efficient electric boilers. So there has been this incremental increase in power demand and without any recent increase in non thermal generating capacity, where does this have to be typically sourced from, thermal generators using gas and coal. Even today, where there is well above wind generation (~60%), Huntly is still chugging along with one boiler running (33% of coal fired generation) and the gas generators are running at ~66% capacity. Interesting that Hydro is only running at about 33% capacity, suggesting that the operators do not want to pull down too hard on them. So it is not correct to claim that EV's effectively use hydro/geothermal sourced energy. |
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Post by fish on Apr 13, 2022 18:26:53 GMT 12
As you mention, none of those issue apply to NZ. I live in NZ, hence base my arguements on what applies here. EV in Au is bat shit crazy from an environmental perspective. There carbon emmission factor of a kWh of eletricity is about 1.25 I think (kg/CO2 or whatever the units are). NZ's same emmissions factor is 0.125. Aust produces the vast majority of electricity from thermal coal. We produce the vast majority of ours from hyrdo, followed by geothermal. If this was an Au sailing forum, you could nail me on the benefits of EV's. Noting that this is "nzsailing-forum" , I think it is more compelling an argument if you apply the NZ situation ;-) Not sure where Australia came into the discussion but you perhaps need to reconsider your numbers on CO2 emissions for the NZ situation. As I am sure you know about 85% of NZ's generating capacity comes from Hydro and geothermal. The rest is from all the other forms of generation. The existing generating capacity at times struggles to deliver enough power to traditional consumers and now there are 2 additional consumers, EVs and Sth Island factories (milk factories and the like) that used to have coal fired boilers and have now had their arms twisted to go to less efficient electric boilers. So there has been this incremental increase in power demand and without any recent increase in non thermal generating capacity, where does this have to be typically sourced from, thermal generators using gas and coal. Even today, where there is well above wind generation (~60%), Huntly is still chugging along with one boiler running (33% of coal fired generation) and the gas generators are running at ~66% capacity. Interesting that Hydro is only running at about 33% capacity, suggesting that the operators do not want to pull down too hard on them. So it is not correct to claim that EV's effectively use hydro/geothermal sourced energy. To be specific, I was referring to the specific emission factors for electricity in NZ and AU, that are quoted above and are different by a factor of 10. I brought Au into it, because I am familiar with their electricity emissions factors, and the source of power generation, along with them being a fairly similar society to ours. On the accuracy of those emissions factor, I may be out by a rounding as I am quoting from memory. BUT, I did produce a carbon footprint report based on those numbers, that went to the Ministry for the Environment, and the feedback was that it was the first report they'd seen that had been done properly. So I am more than confident when I quote the emissions factor used to charge EV's in NZ. PS, if Tiwai closes, all of a sudden we have 13% spare generation capacity. That is why there has been no investment in other generation, and Huntly is kept idling. As soon as Rio Tinto make up there mind, everything will be sorted. My money is on Tiwai converting to a hydrogen plant. Fuel cells for trucks. |
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Post by dutyfree on Apr 13, 2022 18:47:54 GMT 12
There has actually been ongoing investment in generation. Turitea, wind 220MW, first stage just completed. Waipipi wind 133MW, completed about 2 years ago.
Tauhara geothermal under construction 152MW.
Huntly is running as hydro inflows in the South Island, are at record lows.
However, at any point in time the addition of a new electricity load is by default powered by fossil fuel until such time as new generation capacity is added. The reason for this is that the variable renewables are effectively producing their long run average overtime. Hydro's optimise their production based on storage and inflows. While this varies they also produce an "average" amount overtime.
When Tiwai exits, assuming it is in the next say 5 to 10 years, plant such as Huntly, the Stratford gas CCGT and E3P, the CCGT at the Huntly site will progressively shut down. The "surplus" will not be equal to Tiwai.
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Post by Cantab on Apr 13, 2022 19:41:08 GMT 12
And when every one figures out where the electricity will come from to run the electric fleet, you can triple the generation and switch to using hydrogen.
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Post by fish on Apr 13, 2022 21:30:18 GMT 12
Fish: duplicity? 😂😂😂. Mate, I'm still waiting for replies to the two posts I re posted above.... And in context to the topic regarding EVs and not duplicit posts bagging Diesels, ICEs, ... In favour of old phev's that pollute, 2 ways ,just as badly. Ermmm, I replied to your points. Either you didn't like my answer, or your need to work on your reading comprehension skills. Anyway, since you were the original poster, why do you care what car I drive? Specifically, is your problem with EVs, or with the government's policies on EVs? I'm not that fussed by what people drive. Sure, I judge people by what they drive, I think most people do, and would lie if they denied it. But I aren't going to go out of my way to tell people they shouldn't drive this or should drive that. Personal freedoms and free choice and all. I think the Green's ute tax policy is a disaster. I think Labour's ban on oil prospecting is economic sabotage. I think the govt is is driven by dogmatic beliefs, and they have no idea how to convert their desires into reality when faced with economics and outright practicallities. So yes, if your gripe is with govt policy, I fully understand and agree with that. If your gripe is with EV's, then harden up. That is like having a problem with people that drive a certain colour of car, or some other irrelevant factor. As CZ says, horses for courses, and no one should be telling anyone else what to drive. |
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Post by em on Apr 13, 2022 22:59:10 GMT 12
I'm loving the thread drift here. Can you guys see the irony? You started a thread bagging EV's (EV Farce), then, nekminit, the thread is going on about how unreliable leading brand utes are... Gearbox issues, well, there are no gear boxes in EV's. You've got a fraction of the moving parts in an EV. Electric motors, some of the most simple items you can imagine. You'll have a motor and drive shaft bearing. That is it. No gear teeth, no slip discs, no drive damper plates, no cam shaft, no crank shaft, no valves, no timing chain. No fuel pumps, no governors, no electronic injection. The vehicles air con unit is more complicated than the drive motor. Yes, you have to deal with batteries and battery life. But how does that stack up to your status quo? Most EV's go into drive on a cold morning, unlike the Ford Ranger ;-) Yes, you have to plug your charger in. Substantially more convenient that having to drive to a dedicate re-fueling station. You can charge your car at home. kind of like having your own mini-tanker. PS, I was looking at all the dedicated re-fueling stations on Wairau Rd last night, and was wondering what the real estate is worth of petrol stations across the country. All prime retail sites on busy roads. Not to mention all the storage tanks underground, and the related trucking infrastructure. Imagine having your own fuel pump at home. A petrol pipe network up the street, just like the water network. No more queing for petrol. No more having to get off the motorway at the cheapest fuel station on your commute, fill up and then get through the intersections to get back onto the motorway. Apparently, this personal fuel pump and petrol pipe distribution network up every street already exists. You are already paying for it. It goes by the name of the electricity grid ;-) no irony! We bagged EVs, and now you tight arses are bagging rangers( which sell in huge numbers) and complementing old low KM phev's that, sell in small numbers, save a bit if gas, and haven't broken down yet. Wait till they do and they are uneconomical to repair. Ours is 9 years old and rarely gets plugged in . It did it’s job as an economical long range commuter between Hamilton and Whangarei . Still runs mint ,still does the odd trip to hams and will do so again this weekend . It’s the only car we’ve had that hasn’t given us trouble ….yet . If it craps out soon we won’t have any regrets it’s only a car . |
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Post by OLD ROPE 👀 on Apr 22, 2022 9:38:41 GMT 12
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Post by fish on Apr 22, 2022 10:54:24 GMT 12
You'll get your money's worth out of an EV in the 3 to 5 years (optimistic) it will take to set up the hydrogen storage and transfer infrastructure. Possible closer to 20 yrs until you can afford the capital to buy a hydrogen car. The tech is far better suited to heavy trucking. There is already a good second hand market for EV's. You wont be able to drive a hydrogen car for many years, IF you can afford to buy one. You do sound a bit 'glass half empty' on the subject. Yes the govt's policy on the Ute tax is stupid, but horse for courses, given the right use for an EV, you can save $$$. The best example is an urban / city commuter. The same length trip, day in, day out, with a charging point at home, or if you are lucky, at both ends. |
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Post by em on Apr 22, 2022 11:36:53 GMT 12
You'll get your money's worth out of an EV in the 3 to 5 years (optimistic) it will take to set up the hydrogen storage and transfer infrastructure. Possible closer to 20 yrs until you can afford the capital to buy a hydrogen car. The tech is far better suited to heavy trucking. There is already a good second hand market for EV's. You wont be able to drive a hydrogen car for many years, IF you can afford to buy one. You do sound a bit 'glass half empty' on the subject. Yes the govt's policy on the Ute tax is stupid, but horse for courses, given the right use for an EV, you can save $$$. The best example is an urban / city commuter. The same length trip, day in, day out, with a charging point at home, or if you are lucky, at both ends. Exactly why we got our hybrid ….to save money on long intercity commutes and it’s done just that . We didn’t buy it cause Russel Norman thought it was a good idea but we did like that John key said we didn’t have to pay RUC on distance travelled so that was a factor . im in the process of looking for a new vehicle . I buy bombs for myself always diesel if I can . Currently looking at older euro SUVs with 4X4 capabilities cause Japanese ones are way over priced and most have been given a Hiding in the bush or on the beach or at work . I love a bit of research and reading car forums . There is not not one feckin vehicle out there that has not had issues , some are worse than others of course . A recurring theme though is If a vehicle has done more 150k it’s usually had all the dodgy bits replaced with 2nd Gen parts that are better . anyway it brings me back to the PHEV , 9 years old no problems yet and it’s approaching 200k . Even the accessories battery is original but that may be because at 2 o’clock every day it charges up off the drive battery if needed . |
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Post by ComfortZone on Apr 23, 2022 10:22:20 GMT 12
a reasonably balanced discussion on EV's vs ICE powered vehicles www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOyzLSBCBWo&t=556sthe two big variables on EV's are 1. The electricity source, with Europe having to make a big swing back to coal/gas generation 2 not mentioned, but how a battery replacement is factored in. As I have said before horses for courses, and to add there are many shades of grey in the variables |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2022 10:34:12 GMT 12
a DMC DeLorean vehicle with a flux capacitor. Doc Brown uses food scraps, banana peels and leftover beer to fuel his legendary DeLorean. We all know biowaste from households and from municipal solid waste in general releases immense amounts of methane, a gas 23 times more harmful to environment than carbon-dioxide.  |
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Post by fish on Apr 23, 2022 11:04:26 GMT 12
a DMC DeLorean vehicle with a flux capacitor. Doc Brown uses food scraps, banana peels and leftover beer to fuel his legendary DeLorean. We all know biowaste from households and from municipal solid waste in general releases immense amounts of methane, a gas 23 times more harmful to environment than carbon-dioxide. <button disabled="" class="c-attachment-insert--linked o-btn--sm">Attachment Deleted</button> Yes. But given the high cost of, well, almost everything 'fresh' from the supermarket, we compost, worm farm and bokashi all of our food waste and put it back into the garden, to grow fresh greens so we don't have to pay $$$ for it. The bokashi is for composting meat scraps - big step forward in reducing food waste. Not sure if I could run the car on it. But there are examples all over the world of biogas production from various organic sources. Waste Management (yes, that Chinese company) wanted to collect the North Shore's compost and digest it at the Dairy Flat landfill for a biogas operation. I'm not sure what happened to that plan. I think they wanted to charge for the collection, when it is actually a valuable resource. Wastewater treatment plants are a really good source of methane (they produce loads, it is measured as a GHG on carbon assessments for new plants). It is fairly easy to harvest and re-use that methane if you are designing a new plant or anaerobic digestor. Also reduces smell for the neighbours. We even have an arrangement with a friend who works in a rest home kitchen. They dump all of their food scraps, so she brings it to us a couple of times a week, and we compost it, or feed it to the chickens at the local primary school. This is all cottage industry level, but it is perfectly feasible to do a de Lorean and produce energy from food scraps. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2022 11:59:40 GMT 12
a DMC DeLorean vehicle with a flux capacitor. Doc Brown uses food scraps, banana peels and leftover beer to fuel his legendary DeLorean. We all know biowaste from households and from municipal solid waste in general releases immense amounts of methane, a gas 23 times more harmful to environment than carbon-dioxide. <button disabled="" class="c-attachment-insert--linked o-btn--sm">Attachment Deleted</button> Yes. But given the high cost of, well, almost everything 'fresh' from the supermarket, we compost, worm farm and bokashi all of our food waste and put it back into the garden, to grow fresh greens so we don't have to pay $$$ for it. The bokashi is for composting meat scraps - big step forward in reducing food waste. Not sure if I could run the car on it. But there are examples all over the world of biogas production from various organic sources. Waste Management (yes, that Chinese company) wanted to collect the North Shore's compost and digest it at the Dairy Flat landfill for a biogas operation. I'm not sure what happened to that plan. I think they wanted to charge for the collection, when it is actually a valuable resource. Wastewater treatment plants are a really good source of methane (they produce loads, it is measured as a GHG on carbon assessments for new plants). It is fairly easy to harvest and re-use that methane if you are designing a new plant or anaerobic digestor. Also reduces smell for the neighbours. We even have an arrangement with a friend who works in a rest home kitchen. They dump all of their food scraps, so she brings it to us a couple of times a week, and we compost it, or feed it to the chickens at the local primary school. This is all cottage industry level, but it is perfectly feasible to do a de Lorean and produce energy from food scraps. But methane is a higher pollutant than fossil fuel,we have a food scrape operation run by council that collects the bins weekly but the bags that are organic.Apparently take 20+ yrs to break down before they can use as compost.Oh and they will be charging for the compost that they received for free. Green is not a cheap option or commercially viable option. Have had vege gardens in the past. Thinking disperse excess around neighbours,but when our lettuce is ready so is everybody elses,tomatos/potatos. Communal growing could work if each person decide what they are going to grow.That way no excess. Everyone a has figoa tree/apple tree/grapefruit |
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