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Post by GO30 on Sept 11, 2022 9:45:23 GMT 12
We are going to keep on producing food (gross profit around $500/ha/pa) for as long as we can because our principals are not for sale Ouch, that's not that much is it. On our place that's $25K pa less some costs......
Me and the Wa could live on 25K fine but we have many of the things needed already and on that small sum it would be very hard to buy/upgrade gear and the property while doing so.
Assuming it was 10 years on and my plans have come together well and everything is producing as we know it can then we'd be looking at around 40K per hectare per annum income, cost to come off that. But there are some really big IF's and many unknowns so in 10 years it maybe 40K, it maybe 80K and equally it maybe 1c. But then that's part of the fun, the anticipation... Not that I'll really care nor be the beneficiary of...unless I rival Queen Liz in longevity which is unlikely.
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Post by fish on Sept 15, 2022 20:50:42 GMT 12
There is a glimour of hope: Dutch farmers get Agriculture Minister Sacked. Some of the details in this story are staggering. Cutting nitrogen emissions by 50% by 2030 Forced state buy out and shut down of 40% of farms The guy in charge didn't have a fucken clew, and was passing a law making Local Authorities work out how to do it. Sound familiar? SNA's? Winter Grazing? Fart taxes? What baffles me, is within all these stats and targets of reduction, there was no mention of what they were going to do for food. Perhaps I missed that detail? The story on this link is best, but it came from VFF in the first place, link below. www.dutchnews.nl/news/2022/09/resignation-of-agriculture-minister-staghouwer-throws-nitrogen-plans-into-turmoil/http://instagr.am/p/CigR6EDPVag |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2022 10:34:38 GMT 12
In a nutshell...
The Green " LaLa land" party want to ...
Ban emissions from farmers thus ban Farmers.
Ban emissions from certain cars but not all. Including EVs
Ban emissions from from coal and diesel fired machinery including electricity that is required to charge EVs
But they don't say ..
Ban planes ( travel), trucks, ( delivery) or ships ( exports/imports) .. the three biggest polluters.
They do however offset their own polluting ways by buying forests. That need polluters to plant, grow ,and degenerate them.
Hypocrites 100%
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Post by jim on Sept 29, 2022 9:10:54 GMT 12
Farmland going into pine trees - Latest info from MPI is that compared to 2018/19/20/21 when there were about 4,000 hectares per 3 month period being registered into the ETS we are now planting and registering over 80,000 hectares per quarter. from an article in the latest Farmers Weekly. I note there is a whisker of spin in the article saying that "unproductive land not suitable for arable farming makes up the majority of land being planted" implying hill country is unproductive. There will be a lot of hungry people when its covered in pine trees
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Post by fish on Sept 29, 2022 10:03:24 GMT 12
Farmland going into pine trees - Latest info from MPI is that compared to 2018/19/20/21 when there were about 4,000 hectares per 3 month period being registered into the ETS we are now planting and registering over 80,000 hectares per quarter. from an article in the latest Farmers Weekly. I note there is a whisker of spin in the article saying that "unproductive land not suitable for arable farming makes up the majority of land being planted" implying hill country is unproductive. There will be a lot of hungry people when its covered in pine trees You mean they are planting the worst possible land for environmental impacts of pine harvesting? If they were planting in natives / slow growing hardwoods, there would be an environmental benefit. There is a good article in NZ Geo about the lost of kelp forests around NZ. One of the primary causes is sedimentation run off that blocks the light and smoothers the kelp. Pine harvesting is one of the primary culprits of sedimentation run off. The irony? Kelp absorbs a boat load more carbon, and faster, than just about anything... And that is before we talk about slash and flooding impacts on harvesting, and the collapse of rural economies through all of the dry stock farm services that are needed, and are gone when everything is planted in pine. |
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Post by sabre on Sept 29, 2022 10:43:22 GMT 12
Farmland going into pine trees - Latest info from MPI is that compared to 2018/19/20/21 when there were about 4,000 hectares per 3 month period being registered into the ETS we are now planting and registering over 80,000 hectares per quarter. from an article in the latest Farmers Weekly. I note there is a whisker of spin in the article saying that "unproductive land not suitable for arable farming makes up the majority of land being planted" implying hill country is unproductive. There will be a lot of hungry people when its covered in pine trees You mean they are planting the worst possible land for environmental impacts of pine harvesting? If they were planting in natives / slow growing hardwoods, there would be an environmental benefit. There is a good article in NZ Geo about the lost of kelp forests around NZ. One of the primary causes is sedimentation run off that blocks the light and smoothers the kelp. Pine harvesting is one of the primary culprits of sedimentation run off. The irony? Kelp absorbs a boat load more carbon, and faster, than just about anything... And that is before we talk about slash and flooding impacts on harvesting, and the collapse of rural economies through all of the dry stock farm services that are needed, and are gone when everything is planted in pine. Correct me if I am wrong but my understanding is that these 'carbon' forests will never be harvested. Many have been planted purely for the carbon credits and will likely not be economically viable to harvest. |
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Post by fish on Sept 29, 2022 10:57:50 GMT 12
You mean they are planting the worst possible land for environmental impacts of pine harvesting? If they were planting in natives / slow growing hardwoods, there would be an environmental benefit. There is a good article in NZ Geo about the lost of kelp forests around NZ. One of the primary causes is sedimentation run off that blocks the light and smoothers the kelp. Pine harvesting is one of the primary culprits of sedimentation run off. The irony? Kelp absorbs a boat load more carbon, and faster, than just about anything... And that is before we talk about slash and flooding impacts on harvesting, and the collapse of rural economies through all of the dry stock farm services that are needed, and are gone when everything is planted in pine. Correct me if I am wrong but my understanding is that these 'carbon' forests will never be harvested. Many have been planted purely for the carbon credits and will likely not be economically viable to harvest. If that is the case, we are going to have one hell of a problem with wilding pines. And bush fires. If I were an investor based in Europe buying up cheap land in NZ for carbon credits, I'd be taking a punt that in the 30 yrs it takes for a forest to reach harvesting age, the rules will change. Even more so if I started making big political donations to parties that would repeal the ETS for me. Call me a conspiracy theorist if you want ;-) If they weren't holding out any hope of harvesting them one day, you'd think they wouldn't plant in pine, but something good for the environment, that supported ecosystems, like beech in the high country, possibly manuka for honey (bet that doesn't fit the ETS requirements) or even native hardwoods, that would sequester more carbon over time, AND be worth moonbeams if you were ever allowed to harvest it. I think widespread planting in pine is an environmental catastrophe all by itself. |
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Post by sabre on Sept 29, 2022 11:01:59 GMT 12
Yes but pine trees are much much much cheaper. Around 50c per plant v $4.50+ for natives..
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Post by sloopjohnb on Sept 29, 2022 18:45:27 GMT 12
I heard that the "Carbon Forests" are planted much more densely than a plantation forests.
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Post by em on Sept 30, 2022 7:00:44 GMT 12
Yes but pine trees are much much much cheaper. Around 50c per plant v $4.50+ for natives.. And there is a very slick industry already set up for every step in the process of establishing a pine forest . Not so for any alternatives which is shame , totara , macrocarpa and quite a few eucalypts are really good alternatives . |
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Post by jim on Sept 30, 2022 14:32:51 GMT 12
I understand a good amount of these new forests are not planned to be harvested, with no infrastructure (including fire breaks) so it really is a one way street. An interesting and well-informed discussion from these two - its worth watching the lot (9 mins). www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBs34Frdxwo |
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Post by GO30 on Oct 1, 2022 9:07:28 GMT 12
Came up to rural 2 weeks ago and just down the road there is some very nice very gentle rolling clean land. There were machines pulling the fence posts out. I thought Oh they are reconfiguring their paddocks just like we are, cool.
Yesterday up went all the Forestry signs.
Chatting to a group of long term farmers (a mix of diary, beef and dairy/beef combo which is becoming more common apparently) last night and there seem to be a general consensus a good dairy farm has a ROI of 3.5-4.5%. When I suggested with a $9.30 a kg payout looming that will come up man did I hit a button. They started listing some of the costs and holy fuck I knew there were a lot and some goodies but some I'd never even considered. Not only are they at the whim of the Govt, local councils, assorted other regulatory bodies like MPI, Beef n Lamb, etc but also mobs like purchasers who via Fonterra dictate big time. And debt, bugger me some of them have some huge debt, sure also huge assets but debt needs servicing and most banks won't accept fence posts or a bobby calf for that.
When you've been at it for years, get called scum near daily these days, have so many nanas screaming and demanding crap/coin from you and with the following generations seeing the supposed bright lights of the city is it really any wonder a 60yo farmer that has to get up at 4am every day and the at time tuff yakka rural brings sees 4% in his books to look over the fence at a far higher near zero work load carbon farm and thinks 'fuck this, where's the phone'. Personally I hate the idea of mass Pine and would never go there myself but I certainly don't blame many of those that do.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2022 21:42:04 GMT 12
Came up to rural 2 weeks ago and just down the road there is some very nice very gentle rolling clean land. There were machines pulling the fence posts out. I thought Oh they are reconfiguring their paddocks just like we are, cool. Yesterday up went all the Forestry signs. Chatting to a group of long term farmers (a mix of diary, beef and dairy/beef combo which is becoming more common apparently) last night and there seem to be a general consensus a good dairy farm has a ROI of 3.5-4.5%. When I suggested with a $9.30 a kg payout looming that will come up man did I hit a button. They started listing some of the costs and holy fuck I knew there were a lot and some goodies but some I'd never even considered. Not only are they at the whim of the Govt, local councils, assorted other regulatory bodies like MPI, Beef n Lamb, etc but also mobs like purchasers who via Fonterra dictate big time. And debt, bugger me some of them have some huge debt, sure also huge assets but debt needs servicing and most banks won't accept fence posts or a bobby calf for that. When you've been at it for years, get called scum near daily these days, have so many nanas screaming and demanding crap/coin from you and with the following generations seeing the supposed bright lights of the city is it really any wonder a 60yo farmer that has to get up at 4am every day and the at time tuff yakka rural brings sees 4% in his books to look over the fence at a far higher near zero work load carbon farm and thinks 'fuck this, where's the phone'. Personally I hate the idea of mass Pine and would never go there myself but I certainly don't blame many of those that do. told ya so! |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2022 3:51:47 GMT 12
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Post by GO30 on Oct 2, 2022 7:56:30 GMT 12
Most of these mass plantings are carbon farming not forestry. Most will not be cut down and shipped, as a whole log, to china so we can import it back as some cheap shitty flat packed warehouse shortly to be in a landfill product.
The planters get given coin based on who many tress, what sort and so on. This coin is special coin, it has the powers to make cow farts cease to exist, the exhast of a V8 cease to exist, the vomiting or excess CO2 out of a building in Wellington...errrr maybe not that CO2 as it is super turboed powered up with added excrement CO2, the worst kind but sadly the one near impossible to ever eradicate.
So you plant a shed load of trees, most doing those pine weed trees as they are cheap as to buy and plant, the Government then gives you a shed load of your and my money. You retire to somewhere nice, the tress grow and while doing so fuck the land under them. In 20 years time from the best I can see and find from asking no one knows WTF is going to happen to the carbon forests.
As you point out carbon absorbed would be released, not necessarily all at once but over time as the pine dressing table now discarded rots away it will. So many are not expecting these forests to be cut down, they will just be left there do do what they will do. Basically we're doing another kiwifruit, manuka honey like dive in boots n all for the short term coin without knowing or having any sort of plan for 20 years down the road.
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