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Post by em on Sept 15, 2023 19:01:47 GMT 12
If you look on TM under Keelers / latest listings you see a steady procession of decades-old kiwi boats desperately being offloaded. Some of them have been listed on & off for literally years. I suspect that if somebody offered an amnesty service to collect all the unwanted old boats, you could fill every pothole in NZ and cleanup the harbours all at the same time. Not just in NZ, we are behind countries such as UK, France, USA, Canada and Australia where they were pumping out production boats in large numbers some time before NZ. The general problem is that Fibreglass does not break down and add to that in NZ our wood boats were generally well built from durable materials. There are a couple of boat dismantling operations in UK and Europe but early days. The problem is the fibreglass, about all that can be done economically is grind it up and burn it. They have boat wreckers in the states and you can go in and pick over the boats . Great idea but rent and resource consent would make it unfeasible here .
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Post by GO30 on Sept 15, 2023 19:35:06 GMT 12
Find an old quarry, they tend to have holes that need fill. One of my mooring barges ended up in one of those after it blew to bits off Algies.
The problem NZ has is in the 70/80's we had designers and builders ahead of their time so we got a fleet of bloody good boats built well that have lasted both the test of time and the great Kiwi yachtie who can be a Fing ruff prick. Those boats hung in so well there was not a huge need to replace on mass so things basically stopped. Since then they have struggled to get going again. And then look at costs. Building a bespoke, which is the NZ way, boat takes them from large to farkkkk me.
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Post by fish on Sept 15, 2023 21:26:49 GMT 12
They have boat wreckers in the states and you can go in and pick over the boats . Great idea but rent and resource consent would make it unfeasible here . Vote ACT, they are going to ditch the entire Resource Consent thing. Talking about replacing it with the ability to sue anyone that impacts on your property. Could get messy, but would definitely speed up and enable a whole heap of innovative things like a boat wreckers yard.
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Post by ComfortZone on Sept 17, 2023 10:20:34 GMT 12
The problem NZ has is in the 70/80's we had designers and builders ahead of their time so we got a fleet of bloody good boats built well that have lasted both the test of time and the great Kiwi yachtie who can be a Fing ruff prick. Those boats hung in so well there was not a huge need to replace on mass so things basically stopped. Since then they have struggled to get going again. And then look at costs. Building a bespoke, which is the NZ way, boat takes them from large to farkkkk me. The other challenge for the remaining few NZ boat builders for larger pleasure boats (the likes of Stephenson, Pachoud, Tongs, Scott Lane et al) is delivery periods. Whilst the older buyer is happy for the build to take 2 yrs and be part of the build process the younger buyer just wants to tick the options list on the order sheet and have the boat delivered ASAP. It is not even about price anymore, eg one of Tongs 13m Upfolds sells for much the same $$'s as an equivalent quality import. On older boats I think we have to look at it a bit differently to "pay to play". Basically your initial purchase price is to buy a platform to upgrade and the extra you need to spend (which needs to be factored in at the start) is like the depreciation a new boat buyer experiences with their purchase. Of course the best option is to pick up a boat that has been through the upgrade process relatively recently and being prepared to pay a premium over an "original" model.
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Post by GO30 on Sept 17, 2023 13:49:50 GMT 12
The problem NZ has is in the 70/80's we had designers and builders ahead of their time so we got a fleet of bloody good boats built well that have lasted both the test of time and the great Kiwi yachtie who can be a Fing ruff prick. Those boats hung in so well there was not a huge need to replace on mass so things basically stopped. Since then they have struggled to get going again. And then look at costs. Building a bespoke, which is the NZ way, boat takes them from large to farkkkk me. The other challenge for the remaining few NZ boat builders for larger pleasure boats (the likes of Stephenson, Pachoud, Tongs, Scott Lane et al) is delivery periods. Whilst the older buyer is happy for the build to take 2 yrs and be part of the build process the younger buyer just wants to tick the options list on the order sheet and have the boat delivered ASAP. It is not even about price anymore, eg one of Tongs 13m Upfolds sells for much the same $$'s as an equivalent quality import. On older boats I think we have to look at it a bit differently to "pay to play". Basically your initial purchase price is to buy a platform to upgrade and the extra you need to spend (which needs to be factored in at the start) is like the depreciation a new boat buyer experiences with their purchase. Of course the best option is to pick up a boat that has been through the upgrade process relatively recently and being prepared to pay a premium over an "original" model. Those that get NZ built boats want quality and to make it their own so seem very happy to wait. We see good signs of that bespoke type of building/craft growing in NZ. The core names of that, as you mention above, have done well so a few more are jumping in. Just have to make sure it doesn't turn to a Kiwifruit style pile in and/or standards are let to slip as that could derail it all rather fast.
The problem with para 2 is few seem willing to pay the 'upgraded' price or even a decent chunk of it. So any upgrading done is purely for the owners pleasure knowing the chances of it being financial neutral or a win are about as likely as finding a honest politician. There are some who have purchased with the intent of upgrading knowing that'll cost but they are few and far between in the big scheme.
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Post by dutyfree on Sept 17, 2023 14:52:17 GMT 12
The other challenge for the remaining few NZ boat builders for larger pleasure boats (the likes of Stephenson, Pachoud, Tongs, Scott Lane et al) is delivery periods. Whilst the older buyer is happy for the build to take 2 yrs and be part of the build process the younger buyer just wants to tick the options list on the order sheet and have the boat delivered ASAP. It is not even about price anymore, eg one of Tongs 13m Upfolds sells for much the same $$'s as an equivalent quality import. On older boats I think we have to look at it a bit differently to "pay to play". Basically your initial purchase price is to buy a platform to upgrade and the extra you need to spend (which needs to be factored in at the start) is like the depreciation a new boat buyer experiences with their purchase. Of course the best option is to pick up a boat that has been through the upgrade process relatively recently and being prepared to pay a premium over an "original" model. Those that get NZ built boats want quality and to make it their own so seem very happy to wait. We see good signs of that bespoke type of building/craft growing in NZ. The core names of that, as you mention above, have done well so a few more are jumping in. Just have to make sure it doesn't turn to a Kiwifruit style pile in and/or standards are let to slip as that could derail it all rather fast.
The problem with para 2 is few seem willing to pay the 'upgraded' price or even a decent chunk of it. So any upgrading done is purely for the owners pleasure knowing the chances of it being financial neutral or a win are about as likely as finding a honest politician. There are some who have purchased with the intent of upgrading knowing that'll cost but they are few and far between in the big scheme.
I agree on the upgraded bit.
We have sunk close to 20% of the purchase price of our boat into over the last 2 years. That covers predominantly maintenance deferred by the previous owner, heaps of mechanical stuff, coolers, hoses etc. Then general lifecycle stuff, like stripping the antifoul right back to bare hull, needed after 20 years. Then end of life stuff, old unreliable electronics, battery charger, freezer compressor, clears/covers etc. Then some new stuff, radar, battery monitors, dripless shaft seals, modern light dinghy etc. The list is huge.
IF we did not do it, the boat would slowly lose usability, reliability etc. There are some well maintained older boats out there, but they are held onto I think.
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Post by chariot on Sept 17, 2023 16:35:58 GMT 12
Have to agree with you DF. I wasn't prepared to go down that track. Talking to the engineers that checked 1 of the boats I put offers on, they say that since Covid, the quality of boats has dropped dramatically. All that time of no use and then the lack of maintenance since.
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Post by dutyfree on Sept 17, 2023 17:31:23 GMT 12
Even getting surveys, including mechanical can be a bit hit and miss. Our mechnical survey i.e. engines was done by a large engine supplier - missed stuff like old hoses, hydraulic pipes, leaking head gasket, weeping rocker covers....
Mechanic that works on her now asked to see the report. Was not impressed, but all resolved now.
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Post by ComfortZone on Sept 17, 2023 17:37:48 GMT 12
Those that get NZ built boats want quality and to make it their own so seem very happy to wait. We see good signs of that bespoke type of building/craft growing in NZ. The core names of that, as you mention above, have done well so a few more are jumping in. Just have to make sure it doesn't turn to a Kiwifruit style pile in and/or standards are let to slip as that could derail it all rather fast.
The problem with para 2 is few seem willing to pay the 'upgraded' price or even a decent chunk of it. So any upgrading done is purely for the owners pleasure knowing the chances of it being financial neutral or a win are about as likely as finding a honest politician. There are some who have purchased with the intent of upgrading knowing that'll cost but they are few and far between in the big scheme.
I agree on the upgraded bit.
We have sunk close to 20% of the purchase price of our boat into over the last 2 years. That covers predominantly maintenance deferred by the previous owner, heaps of mechanical stuff, coolers, hoses etc. Then general lifecycle stuff, like stripping the antifoul right back to bare hull, needed after 20 years. Then end of life stuff, old unreliable electronics, battery charger, freezer compressor, clears/covers etc. Then some new stuff, radar, battery monitors, dripless shaft seals, modern light dinghy etc. The list is huge.
IF we did not do it, the boat would slowly lose usability, reliability etc. There are some well maintained older boats out there, but they are held onto I think.
The upgrades repay you in spades. I am on my 2nd offshore cruise on CZ and have only had minor maintenance issues to deal with, inevitable toilet maintenance, a couple of minor deck leaks fixed by new sealant a failed float switch in a shower sump and some issues with cotter rings on my mainsail batten cars. The fortune I spent on her major refit has been well worthwhile. The upside DF is when you come to sell the Riv it will go very quickly...
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Post by dutyfree on Sept 17, 2023 17:57:18 GMT 12
Same with all the boats we have owned
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Post by em on Sept 18, 2023 8:59:55 GMT 12
We bought at the beginning of winter when things were just falling off a cliff . I probably love kiwi boats more than the average and worked as a factory rat at a couple of launch builders and a yacht designer/ builder . The large size of our family and the modest size of our budget put suitable kiwi boats out of reach ….the D52 whichway would’ve been perfect ! But $$ .
The search was interesting too , looked at two kiwi boats , two French and one German production boat . Got one kiwi boat half surveyed but It became apparent it needed some major work so pulled the plug . Looked at a legendary whiting 47 and loved it , loaded with nearly new gear and sails and packed with spares for everything . Looked at a 35 year old beneteau 50 on the same day that was a bit out of the budget . The beneteau had a much better layout for a large family and a similar level of construction to the whiting , that is built like a brick shit house .
In the end we got the beneteau surveyed and it came back good and sound structurally with normal deck and hull moisture levels . I didn’t get a mechanical survey because it has the same engine as what my bulldozer had , Perkins 4.236 . I knew I wanted to change the gearbox before we bought it and warned my partner that was happening straightaway . So got the thing home ordered a new gearbox and gave the old Hurth clutch burner to the vintage Machinery club who confirmed it was about to shit itself ! .
Spent 6 weeks solid on the gearbox transplant , the boat was on its pile moorings so had to row out each day which extended the timeline . While I was at it I added a new style damper plate with rubber bushes instead of springs. To do that the flywheel had to come out and get machined (seems I’ve given myself a hernia lifting that ) . The driveline has an early Aquadrive double CV joint between the gearbox and thrust bearing , that had a spilt in the boot and a corresponding circle of grease in the bilge , up the bulkheads and on the underside of the sole . So that came out and got disassembled . The CV joint had dry caked grease inside but thank god no bearing damage , cleaned and repacked/rebooted it . The fuel system was original , copper lines and joiners and old school CAV glassbowl filters . Replaced that with all rubber lines and two Racor cyclone Filters in parallel and one CAV at the engine to match all the injector pipe work . Also put in a new hot water cylinder while the saloon was ripped apart . the old one was weeping and had rusted from the inside …it’s now a brazier at my mates place .
The new trans and damper plate are quiet and smooth as and we have the peace of mind it’s it not going to shit itself mechanically at the worst possible moment . The next most important job is the anchor winch . The original horizontal was replaced with a vertical but they mounted it horizontally , the chain jumps off the Gypsy when lowering the anchor so it has to be paid out manually with a wrap on the rope drum . That’s impossible for my partner as the anchor is a beast and it’s also fuckin dangerous . There’s hundreds of other small jobs to do but nothing that prevents us going sailing .
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Post by Fogg on Sept 18, 2023 17:38:01 GMT 12
Nice. Many of those older Euro boats were built in v solid GRP and are still going strong all over the world. Before they built them bendy.
Pics?
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Post by ComfortZone on Sept 18, 2023 18:40:23 GMT 12
Nice. Many of those older Euro boats were built in v solid GRP and are still going strong all over the world. Before they built them bendy. Pics? it us generally recognised that Beneteau monos (in particular the likes of the 473) and Fontaine Pajot cats up to the early 2000's (to pick 2 examples) were pretty solid if a bit rough, after that they started slimming down the scantlings and stopped doing radical stuff like bonding bulkheads to the hull and decks. Not keen in the Bavarias of any age, they were never very well built
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Post by Fogg on Sept 18, 2023 18:57:49 GMT 12
Yes the Bavs arrived during the bendy phase but the older Ben / Jen boats were pretty solid.
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Post by ComfortZone on Sept 18, 2023 19:08:16 GMT 12
the best older euro production boats strength wise would have to be the UK built Moodys and Westerlys, they really were solid.
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