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Post by fish on Oct 9, 2023 9:17:34 GMT 12
I don't agree with or support anything that Hamas has done, but that sort of response CZ is the classic Israeli shut down of any insight into what is actually going on. Painting a completely one sided picture, ignoring all of Israel's provocation. The tactic is evidenced by Israelis assassination of journalists (American citizen) and bombing of international media offices last year. They don't want the story of what they have been doing getting out. |
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Post by fish on Oct 9, 2023 9:19:30 GMT 12
US decision to send aircraft carrier a ‘major escalation’: Analyst
The US decision to send an aircraft carrier to the region is perplexing and a “major escalation”, according to Al Jazeera’s senior political analyst Marwan Bishara.
Defence Secretary Austin said the US will send multiple military ships and aircraft closer to Israel as a show of support.
“I do not understand in strategic military terms why the US would send aircraft carriers – with some 5,000 sailors on it – and the most sophisticated aircraft in the world when Israel is more than capable of dealing with Hamas in the Gaza Strip,” he said.
“The idea of this arms build-up in the Middle East at this point in time, it’s dangerous.”
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Post by fish on Oct 9, 2023 9:21:05 GMT 12
There is some irony that Donald Trump got the closest to a Middle East Peace Plan with his grand real estate deal. That was criticised by all the lefties when it came out, but is looking like a damn good option about now.
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Post by fish on Oct 9, 2023 9:44:10 GMT 12
Four in 10 Palestinian men spend time in Israel jails.
Today, the number of Palestinians currently behind Israeli bars is 5,200, including 33 women and 170 children. If tried, Palestinian prisoners are prosecuted in military courts.
So, why are there so many prisoners?
Two months after Israel occupied Palestinian and Arab territories in the 1967 war, its government issued Military Order 101 which essentially criminalised civic activities under the basis of “hostile propaganda and prohibition of incitement”.
The order, which is still in use in the occupied West Bank, outlaws the participation and organisation of protests, printing and distributing political material, waving flags and other political symbols, and any activity that demonstrates sympathy for an organisation deemed illegal under military orders.
How many Palestinian children have been arrested by Israel?
Since the outbreak of the second Intifada in 2000, more than 12,000 Palestinian children have been detained by Israeli forces.
At least 700 Palestinian children under the age of 18 from the occupied West Bank are prosecuted every year through Israeli military courts after being arrested, interrogated and detained by the Israeli army.
Addameer describes the arrest and imprisonment of children as systemic and part of a collective punishment campaign.
The most common charge is throwing stones, which is punishable by a maximum punishment of 20 years.
The children are often subjected to physical and psychological torture, according to child rights groups. They are interrogated without the presence of a parent or lawyer, and critics have accused Israel of exploiting their detention to turn them into informants and to extort their families financially by forcing them to pay huge fines.
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Post by ComfortZone on Oct 9, 2023 10:19:49 GMT 12
I don't agree with or support anything that Hamas has done, but that sort of response CZ is the classic Israeli shut down of any insight into what is actually going on. Painting a completely one sided picture, ignoring all of Israel's provocation. The tactic is evidenced by Israelis assassination of journalists (American citizen) and bombing of international media offices last year. They don't want the story of what they have been doing getting out. Yet you are making alot of excuses for Hamas and won't acknowledge them for the terrorists and provocateur's they are. Why does Israel need its "Iron Dome" defence system if they are the only ones on the offensive? In the past before launching retalitory attacks on Hamas rocket launching bases, the Israeli's have broadcast warnings of incoming fire to give civilians time to evacuate. Have not seen Hamas doing that, their intention is to maximise civilian casualties in Israel. Every major exchange of weapons at Gaza has been initiated by Hamas, as I said before using the Gaza people as canon fodder You talk about following misleading MSM reporting, well maybe you should dig rather deeper about the so called "media office" that was bombed, its location and who was in there. It sure was not what it was masquerading as. As I have said before I do not see the Israeli's as saints by a long shot, but I sympathise with them when they have an enemy who has no interest in negotiating a peace, only their total destruction. The fact that you and I, who have similar views on many subjects, are at opposite ends of the spectrum on this one just highlights what a difficult issue this is. |
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Post by eri on Oct 9, 2023 10:54:15 GMT 12
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Post by fish on Oct 9, 2023 11:29:28 GMT 12
I don't agree with or support anything that Hamas has done, but that sort of response CZ is the classic Israeli shut down of any insight into what is actually going on. Painting a completely one sided picture, ignoring all of Israel's provocation. The tactic is evidenced by Israelis assassination of journalists (American citizen) and bombing of international media offices last year. They don't want the story of what they have been doing getting out. Yet you are making alot of excuses for Hamas and won't acknowledge them for the terrorists and provocateur's they are. As I have said before I do not see the Israeli's as saints by a long shot, but I sympathise with them when they have an enemy who has no interest in negotiating a peace, only their total destruction. The fact that you and I, who have similar views on many subjects, are at opposite ends of the spectrum on this one just highlights what a difficult issue this is. On your first point, the problem with discussing this whole issue is the polarity around it. I am not making excuses for Hamas. Some of the stuff they have done is truly sickening. It is possible to disagree with BOTH sides. It is not a binary discussion where, if you are sickened by Hamas's actions you automatically support Israel. You touch on this in your second point (Israeli's are no saints by a long shot). I don't think the Palestinian people are treated at all well. Note that is the Palestinian people as opposed to Hamas. Israel have something like 1,700 military orders that govern and control all parts of a Palestinian's life. I'm not talking about having their land stolen, that is another matter again. I'm talking about the complete lack of movement, no prospect of work or any means of supporting themselves, no education. Literally being penned in an open prison. Sure I can see why the Israelis feel compelled to do that, especially with this current event as an example. The only reason I'm kicking up about it is the lopsided media coverage and Western hypocrisy around it all. And yes, we do normally have similar views on most subjects. We are possibly not that far off on this one, although it doesn't appear like it via interweb posts. Moving on from the morality issues and onto the geo-political aspects of this. I can only assume the US want to park an aircraft carrier and battle fleet (or whatever they call them) off Israel is to deter some other country from having a go. Iran is the most obvious, but Egypt, Syria and Lebanon have all had a go in the past. What really worries me is these hostages and a ground invasion of Gaza. I can't see how that could end well for anyone. PS, Gaza is a tad larger than Gt Barrier Island, but has a population of 2.3 million. So to understand the population density of Gaza, you could imagine taking the population of Auckland, Hamilton, Tauranga and Whangarei, and shoving them all on the Barrier. They have an unemployment number of around 45%-50%. |
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Post by fish on Oct 9, 2023 14:47:11 GMT 12
UN human rights expert ‘horrified by narrative’
Francesca Albanese, the UN special rapporteur on human rights in the Palestinian territories, said she was “petrified by what is happening” in Israel and Gaza.
“Before anything else, I’m horrified by the narrative,” Albanese added. “It’s possible, and necessary, to stand with both the Palestinians and Israelis without resorting to ethical relativism, selective outrage or worse: calls for violence.”
Albanese, who has been in the role as an independent UN human rights expert for 16 months, said that “violence escalating against defenceless Palestinians [is] something that has been ongoing for over six decades now. Fifty six years just in the context of the occupation.”
She acknowledged that Israelis were in pain but that this needed to be put in the “context of decades of oppression imposed on the Palestinians”.
“The militarized, settler-colonial occupation that Israel maintains traps both people,” she added.
Politicians and policymakers “should prioritise restoring legality and accountability, using diplomacy and peace as conflict resolution methods,” said Albanese, “rather than advocating for more violence or standing with one side or another”.
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Post by Cantab on Oct 9, 2023 15:03:48 GMT 12
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Post by em on Oct 10, 2023 7:16:02 GMT 12
There’s speculation Hamas had intel on Israel’s iron dome air defence system . They would’ve received that from Iran via Russia . Also speculation that Iran has intel on the US response plan if they take steps to intervene , also via Russia .
When trumps Mar a Largo estate was raided to recover sensitive documents , allegedly there were missing files related to an unnamed nations nuclear defence strategy .
The US sent two carrier groups to the eastern Med yesterday . Israel warned its residents today to have 3 days worth of food etc on hand and be ready to head to the bomb shelters .
Israel also warned Gaza civilians to evacuate immediately but Egypt will not open its borders . Neighbouring countries have learned the hard way that Hamas just sets up in refugee camps and continues its operations while stoking unrest in the host countries.
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Post by GO30 on Oct 10, 2023 11:32:07 GMT 12
I still can't work this out.
Is Israel the aholes or is it Palestine?
Everytime I have a suss I come away thinking each is bad as the other and can't see any discernable difference bar the level of weaponry each side has.
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Post by fish on Oct 10, 2023 13:05:09 GMT 12
Everytime I have a suss I come away thinking each is bad as the other and can't see any discernable difference bar the level of weaponry each side has. This is correct. Israel has been massacering Muslims since the late 1940's, yet can't work out why they want to destroy Israel. But you wont read about that in Western media. Both are committing heinous acts against each other and for some reason people want to pick sides, including our govt. |
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Post by GO30 on Oct 10, 2023 14:12:37 GMT 12
Ah ha, so it is that obvious in being a muppet V muppet situation and as per all conflicts like that the muppets making the calls will be safely tucked well away from any chance of harm.
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Post by em on Oct 10, 2023 14:24:56 GMT 12
I’m not taking sides but it has the capacity to spark a major war or even a world war . It’s in Russias best interests to have US and NATO resources spread out which puts strain on military aid to Ukraine . What makes me uneasy is if the US gets embroiled in this conflict it leaves the door wide open for china to bust a move on Taiwan . I wouldn’t be the least bit surprised if there’s coercion between China / Russia / N Korea /Iran especially regarding supply of arms and intel to Hamas .
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Post by fish on Oct 10, 2023 15:01:49 GMT 12
I’m not taking sides but it has the capacity to spark a major war or even a world war . It’s in Russias best interests to have US and NATO resources spread out which puts strain on military aid to Ukraine . What makes me uneasy is if the US gets embroiled in this conflict it leaves the door wide open for china to bust a move on Taiwan . I wouldn’t be the least bit surprised if there’s coercion between China / Russia / N Korea /Iran especially regarding supply of arms and intel to Hamas . The previous wars between Israel and the various neighbours have significantly altered the world geopolitical landscape. The 1973 war (anniversary 50 years and 1 day from when this kicked off) resulted in the formation of OPEC (I think, or the first real action from OPEC), the steady ratcheting up of oil prices and a complete embargo of oil to America. This was in the middle of the cold war and caused a real issue for the US in terms of it's impact on ability to deal with Russia. I'd absolutely bet a bottle of whiskey Russia is involved somewhere, this is a major distraction for the US. Even if it means the munitions factories are already flat out and can't supply Ukraine because they are supplying Israel. As to where this can go and how it could play out, that is frightening to think about. Israel has nukes and the backing of the worlds biggest bully (the US). Israel have already vowed to punish the Palestinians for generations. Possibly the 'best' outcome is the 'only' wipe Gaza and the 2.3mil inhabitants off the map. That would be a favourable outcome on the basis no other countries get involved. I don't really know the chances of all the Arab countries sitting around and letting that happen though. Can't understand why Iran wants the bomb. N. Korea aren't on the US's Christmas card list, and they have some bombs. Wonder if they would swap them for something useful, maybe a couple of shipments of grain? |
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